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Ford Hybrids' Fuel Economy Failing To Live Up To EPA Ratings?

 
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2013 Ford C-Max Hybrid, Los Angeles, August 2012

2013 Ford C-Max Hybrid, Los Angeles, August 2012

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This is starting to look not so good.

It appears that two new hybrid cars from Ford--the 2013 C-Max Hybrid hatchback and the 2013 Fusion Hybrid sedan--may not deliver real-world gas mileage that's anywhere near their 47-mpg EPA ratings.

Automotive journalists have been quietly discussing this for a few weeks, since Ford began releasing C-Max and 2013 Fusion vehicles into media test fleets.

C-Max Hybrid: stretching to hit 40 mpg?

It's still early yet, and it's possible that gas mileage may improve slightly in the cars once several thousand miles have accumulated on each one.

But Green Car Reports has tested the C-Max twice, once at Ford's media drive and once over a quick weekend route.

In the first case, the C-Max delivered 37 mpg over 50 miles of mixed freeway and urban driving. Over our weekend route, we got 40 mpg over 240 miles, mostly at freeway speeds.

And other outlets had similar results.

Most awkwardly for Ford, Larry Vellequette of Automotive News has documented his struggles to achieve anything close to 47 mpg in the C-Max Hybrid he bought for family use.

His average gas mileage was 37 mpg.

Vellequette even got chief engineer John Davis to show him the most fuel-efficient driving techniques, but he still couldn't approach a sustained 47 mpg.

Moreover, the eight C-Max Hybrid owners who have submitted their real-world mileages to FuelEconomy.gov averaged just 40.7 mpg.

2013 Fusion Hybrid too?

Now tests are starting to emerge for the 2013 Ford Fusion Hybrid, the most fuel-efficient model of the company's new mid-size sedan.

And, again, they seem to be far below the EPA numbers, which duplicate those of the C-Max Hybrid at 47 mpg for all three ratings: city, highway, and combined.

Jason Harper, testing the Fusion Hybrid for Bloomberg, got 36.9 mpg.

Gary Gastelu, testing the hybrid sedan for Fox News, wrote, "Even though I intentionally left my lead shoes at home and light-footed the Fusion Hybrid as much as possible (proving once and for all that I can, in fact, drive 55 mph) I took a lot of work to get it anywhere near 40 mpg, let alone that magic 47 mpg mark."

Only two owners have submitted real-world ratings for the 2013 Fusion Hybrid to FuelEconomy.gov, but their average was even worse: 35.0 mpg.

2012 Ford Escape Hybrid

2012 Ford Escape Hybrid

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Last generation: on the money

The discrepancy is all the more surprising because the last-generation Ford hybrids seemed to hit their mileage numbers on the nose.

The late Escape Hybrid, rated at 29 mpg in its all-wheel drive model, generally achieved 28 to 32 mpg.

In our test of the last-generation Lincoln MKZ Hybrid, we registered 40.5 mpg over a 250-mile route with a majority of highway mile--better than its combined EPA rating of 39 mpg.

Similarly, The Car Connection got around 40 mpg on its week-long test of 2010 Ford Fusion Hybrid.

Moreover, all members of the Toyota Prius line of four vehicles appear to deliver real-world mileage within about 10 percent of their combined EPA ratings.

Those are 50 mpg combined for both the Prius Liftback and the new Prius C subcompact, and 42 mpg for the Prius V wagon.




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Comments (201)
  1. 35 MPG real world? Wow that's poor. I expected better from a hybrid in 2012.
     
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  2. Well, not really. Name me another 4,000 vehicle that can do 0-60mph in less than 9 seconds and still return 35mpg?

    It is all physics. ICE hasn't hit any breakthrough yet. The so called Atkinson cycle engine is a 120 year old technolgy.
     
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  3. Wrong answer Xia,
    Cmax is only 3,600 lbs first of all. Prius V has is bigger and has more cargo room but gets over 40mpg and is 300lbs lighter. Volt gets over 35mpg and is almost 3,800lbs.
     
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  4. I get 42 mpg on the hwy in my 2011 Volt. On longer drives. The initial miles are low when the engine is cold but averages out above 40mpg as the engine heats up.
     
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  5. I am averaging 54 MPG on gas miles and 258 Wh/mi on electricity with my PiP.
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  6. Prius V doesn't do 0-60 in less than 9 second.

    Only the Volt gets that kind of good MPG and still go performance. But it is smaller.
     
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  7. 37 MPG with premium gas in a compact is not really good. A mild hybrid with 10 kW assist motor can do better than that.

    Considering the size and utility, 40-41 MPG for C-Max hybrid is still impressive.
     
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  8. You again? Still clueless about performance vs. power again?

    Do I need to explain to you the basic physic where weight matter?

    Why is your sucky Prius Plugin only get useless 11 miles electric? B/c it sucks. Don't even get me started on your retard reasoning that it is more efficient.

    When you tune any car down to the golf cart level performance, it will get better mpg.

    If you can't argue with decent reasoning and keep repeating your biased stuff, I am NOT going to bother with you comment.

    Volt is designed to be EV first. Its 16KWh is heavy and you are making Engineering tradeoff to get that.

    That is why most Volt have majority of the miles in electric.

    My Volt has over 8193 miles and only 54 gallon used. Nuff said there.
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  9. "37 MPG with premium gas in a compact is not really good."

    How come you only mention that the "extended range" mileage? Oh, that is right, but you HAVE NO CLUE on what the Volt is about and you have to keep remind me how "clueless" you are.

    Why is ANY "Plugin" car only have up to 11 miles in EV range then? It is SHORTEST EV Range of any Plugin out there. Is that sucky or what? Why is Toyota so dumb and it can't do better as Ford at least with 21 miles in its C-Max. Why are you so inclined using gas in your Prius?

    Just buy a regular Prius then, it would be at least faster and cheaper...
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  10. @Dennis Chin,

    So you are okay with C-Max hybrid getting 47MPG EPA rating and C-Max Energi getting 43mpg EPA rating? Care to explain where did the 10% go since the Energi model has smaller space and worse performance...

    A little hint for you, battery. Added weight means lower MPG in "gas mode". But C-Max did an engineering trade to give you "real world" EV miles instead of the "fake attempt" by Prius Plugin.
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  11. @Dennis Chin,

    YOu also need to upgrade your "old fashioned" thinking of hybrid and come to the new age of Plugin.

    Plugin is about electricity usage instead of gas. If I so cared about gas mileage like you, I would have bought a hybrid instead of the BEST EV range plugin on the market.

    You should get a clue sometimes...
     
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  12. Hope you are enjoying the holiday.

    First, I have been in green car movement since the beginning so I do have a clue. For any car that uses two fuels, the efficiency of both are important.

    In your 8,192 miles, how many miles are driven on the 54 gallons of gas? For the remaining electric miles, how many kWh were consumed?

    Efficiency of both fuels are important and should be balanced to maximize greeness (lower emission). Per EPA, using US average electricity, Volt would produce more greenhouse emission than a regular Prius (260 vs 222 g/mi). Plugin Prius is the only plugin hybrid of any size that raised the bar (210 g/mi) while using domestic electricity. Remember, about a third of gasoline is domestic as well.
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  13. To me, the point of plugin hybrid is not to eliminate gas usage (BEV is for that). The point of PHV is to use each fuel when benificial. I use the electric miles for those short frequent trips. I also save my EV miles for those slower congested sections of my trip. Highway near constant miles are for the 49 MPG gas engine.

    I get about 13 EV miles from my PiP. That's more than enough for around town and I use them up on the highway section of my longer trips.
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  14. "First, I have been in green car movement since the beginning so I do have a clue. For any car that uses two fuels, the efficiency of both are important."

    That is where you are so WRONG and clueless. LET ME REPEAT this through YOUR THICK HEAD, VOLT is EV first and hybrid second. It is designed to be EV most of the time for most of the people's commute.

    Anytime, a vehicle is on electric, it is FAR MORE EFFICIENT by design. That is why you want to stay on EV as long as you can. That is why it is PLUGIN instead of regular hybrid.

    8192 miles, 2141 miles are gas miles. MPG of 39.65. EV miles are 6051. KWh consumed varied depending on whether I use the KWh to heat while parked or not. But in general, I get about 3.6 to 4 miles per KWh.
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  16. Who cares 0-60 in x second? So you can arrive at the office a few seconds earlier?
     
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  17. 0-60 is only one of the factor in performance. Braking and Handling are both important and Pip suck at both as well...

    Performance is a "safety" feature sometimes...
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  18. VW Jetta SportWagen weighs 3,283 lb, and gets 51 MPG on the highway, a MINIMUM of 37 MPG in the city, and accelerates from 0-60 MPH in 9 seconds. 236 lb/ft of torque are available at 1,750 RPM. Cargo weight capacity is 996 lbs.

    And that is just average for a clean diesel car; wait until 2014 mazda6 diesel becomes available, then you will really know what an ultramodern clean diesel car is capable of.
     
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  19. Those are your "rating", NOT EPA rating.

    My Volt's torque is 270 ft-lbs at any RPM. The New Spark EV has 400 ft-lbs of torque at any RPM.
     
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  20. I usually discount these journalist MPG rating as very unscientific, but Voelcker seems to have a good collection of anecdotal evidence, so perhaps there is something to it.

    I am really disappointed because I thought the C-Max Energi might be my next car, but now I am not so sure.

    Well, let's hope some Fuelly data shows up soon to shed some more light on the subject.
     
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  21. Fuelly data for the C-Max Hybrid (15 Vehicles) is 39.7 mpg ... right in line with this article. Start looking elsewhere!
     
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  22. Not to be ridiculous here, But if that data represents more cold weather, than there could be reason to hope for better numbers after a full year of use.

    Of course, if those owners are in the South, than perhaps 40 MPG is the answer.
     
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  23. John

    I believe this is commentary on the C-Max Hybrid not the C-Max Energi Plugin. I'll wait to reserve judgement on the Energi numbers when it's being sold here. (BTW they sell that in Europe, so we should have good european data)
     
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  24. Doesn't the higher fuel consumption come with the season of wind, cold and rain?
     
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  25. Many of those so called "media reviews" aren't done in the wind, cold or rain....
     
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  26. I got 42 mpg on the highway in my Volt in high 30s, low 40s *F temperatures. Also got 43 mpg on my drive from FL to PA in July when I bought it. Quite consistent.
     
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  27. cmax with 2.0 lt. ice is about 330 lbs. heavier than prius v with 1.8 lt. ice. It takes more power to tote the wieght if you want it to GO. Get the lead out Ford! smaller volume than prius v but too heavy even with li ion
     
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  28. My family has both a 2010 Fusion Hybrid and a 2012 MKZ Hybrid. Before that, I had a Camry Hybrid. In all three cars that mileage at the onset was about 33 to 35mpg. With the Fusion Hybrid, at 20K miles I was getting 39 combined. At 40k, I was getting 40 and now at 65K miles, I am getting just a bit over 41mpg. The MKZ at 30K miles is getting 38. The Camry at 12k miles was getting 37 before I got rid of it.

    The moral of this story seems to be that as the drive train "wears in", the mileage improves. I hope that is the way it works for others. 65K on my 2010 Fusion Hybrid and so far, I have replaced two tires and the 12v battery and the wiper blades. Oil changes every 10k miles. Absolutely zero other repairs.
     
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  29. Joe, I've heard similar anecdotal evidence, but not that much detail, so thank you for sharing. I certainly hope this is the case.
     
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  30. As bearing seals break in, it helps. Don't forget that as tires wear, they get smaller. Your efficiency to go the same distance door-to-door distance actually shows higher mpg by a very small amount due to smaller tires from brand-new.
     
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  31. That's good info, Joe, but I'm hoping I don't need to drive tens of thousands of miles, past the warranty period, before I get the advertised MPG. So far, it's not even close.
     
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  32. If I had to guess what it is, I would say it is staying in all electric mode for too much of the EPA driving schedule. The EPA highway schedule never goes above 60MPH and is not very aggressive. But the C-max can be in all electric mode all the way up to 62MPH.

    Much like the EPA schedule gives too little credit for start-stop technology, it can give too much credit for other technologies. Just a thought.

    Of course there could be other factors, but I wouldn't rule out the limitations of the drive cycle's ability to reflect the performance of the vehicle.
     
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  33. Greg, the EPA highway test goes much higher than 60. please see the testing procedure at fueleconomy.gov
     
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  34. Yes, but majority of the miles are under 62 mph when C-Max hybrid can shut down the gas engine.
     
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  35. Yeah, but how long do you think that 1.6KWh battery can last at 60mph?

    Do you know anything about electric propulsion?
     
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  36. You are looking at a hybrid from an EV perspective. Square peg won't fit in a round hole.

    The role of a HV battery is to be used when the ICE is inefficient. Generally, if the gas engine can be shut down more often, MPG will increase. Those miles will be either low power or deceleartion so 1.6 kWh battery is all it needs to cover the ICE's "weakness".

    Remember, ICE will have to charge it back up to maintain the target SOC. That will be done when ICE really need to run with the loads combined.

    Your fanatic attitude is getting tiring. Grow up.
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  37. The point was that battery was so small, even at that size, it wouldn't provide much miles in EV only mode... So, EPA test doesn't reflect that fact.

    Your "Prius Fanboy" attitude is getting silly.

    Feel free to drive your ugly 4-star rated slow handling, bad braking crappy car...
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  38. Another thing for your "square head"...

    Why are Lexus CT200 worse in MPG than your Prius when they have similar weight and powertrain?
    Why does Miata and BRZ/FR-S have worse MPG than larger sedans?

    Performance.

    That is also why C-Max is worse in MPG than the Prius. The cars with more performance aren't tuned to be a "boring box" like your PIP. That is why MPG is worse.

    So FAR, your "square head" hasn't been able to come up anything with Prius PLugin except for the 50MPG in gas mode and maybe 4 cu ft of passenger volume and 1 extra person seating over the Volt... Just about everything else, "Volt would beat up your Prius"

    Apparently, the "ultimum" gas MPG and size are ALL THAT MATTERS TO YOU. Feel free to love your "short bus".
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  40. Making the ICE more efficient is like making a dinosaur jump through hoops: it's very hard to achieve and the new trend seems to be to cover up failures by making up your own numbers. It's easy to cheat, after all your mileage will vary right?

    The meteor of peak oil has struck and it's fascinating and sometimes rather ugly to watch the ICE dinosaurs struggle for survival.
     
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  41. Actually, I disagree somewhat. At the end of the day, it is all physics. If you want to move certain mass to certain speed quickly, it takes energy. That is the major part. Even in EVs, speed and weight matters. Tesla S is very "thirsty" in terms of power in respect against Leaf and i-Miev. You are talking about 2.8 to 3.2 miles per KWh vs. 3.5 to 3.8 miles per KWh. That is 15% to 20% improvement in efficiency. Most of that are due to weight and power.

    This can be clearly demonstrated in Eco vs. Sports mode and adding passengers to the vehicle.

    A loaded Prius with 4 passenger going fast will easily drop from 50mpg down to 40 mpg without any other factors... Or I will drop it down to 42mpg with just my Pb foot by myself. :)
     
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  42. Physics only set the ceiling, which for an hybrid or EV is extremely high: up to 100% of the energy taken out of the battery to accelerate the vehicle could be fed back to it when it slows down. The limits come from the drivetrain inefficiencies: cut those down and you can increase the vehicle weight, or "driving spirited-ness", by just as much without penalty.

    Toss the Coda into your comparison: about same weight and size as the Leaf, but 35% higher energy consumption.

    Then, at speed on level ground, vehicle weight or power don't really matter compared to air resistance.

    Pitch the i-MiEV vs Focus EV: the latter is 1.5 times the weight and almost twice the peak power, yet they get the same EPA 99 MPGe hwy.
     
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  43. Agreed. Weight is a factor, but at this early stage of development, some companies are doing better than others as shown in the link.
    http://johncbriggs-electricvehicles.blogspot.com/2011/09/epa-efficiency.html
     
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  44. Well, sure there are "design ceilings". But my point was when everything is designed well and efficient, then the mass and power start to matter. (that is why I don't even use CODA as example which IMHO is junk).

    Even for the same given car, driving it agreesively in sports mode and agressively in eco mode will return different energy consumption numbers.
     
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  45. Also, EPA hwy numbers can be misleading. Because at hwy speed, the coefficient of drag and tire resistance becomes much bigger factors than weight in lower speed. Comparing HWY MPG only usually tell you how much drag a car has and how much tire resistance it has... But the city and combined MPG are usually impacted by weight and performance.
     
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  46. I have gone with 4 passengers and loaded cargo and still got around 50 mpg with my Prius. I drove more carefully (a bit slower and cautiously). That's something a Volt owner can dream of and not able to pull off.
     
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  47. Are you really that "clueless".

    My Volt has used only 54 gallons in the last 8193 miles. That is something that NONE OF your GREEN SCAM Prius Plugin can do!!!!
     
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  48. "I drove more carefully (a bit slower and cautiously). "

    I call Prius such as that "moving road blocks"...
     
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  49. For your reference, I drive faster and more aggressive than Volt drivers over here.
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  50. For your reference, all Prius Plugin drivers drive really slow. If you don't drive that slow, you wouldn't get that 13 miles EV range.

    Only the Previous Prius owners buy Prius Plugin anyway...

    Just stay out of my way...
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  51. "I have gone with 4 passengers and loaded cargo and still got around 50 mpg with my Prius. I drove more carefully (a bit slower and cautiously). That's something a Volt owner can dream of and not able to pull off"

    FYI, I have gone with 4 passengers in my Volt and loaded cargo and still got over 36 miles in EV miles while I am passing all the slow Prius. That is something Prius drivers won't be able to pull it off...

    You just don't get it, do you? Volt is designed to stay on EV mode most of the time since most people commute in short distance. In EV mode, Volt is at least 1.9x more efficient than teh 50MPG.

    There was already article on how Volt owners avoid using any gas all the time.
     
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  52. And FYI, I have done the same while getting 48-51 MPG in my clean diesel, passing both the Prius and the Volt, while the 236 lb/ft of torque pushed me back in my seat at only 1,750 RPM.
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  53. Annatar, you do realize the Volt has 273 lb-ft of torque at ZERO RPM, right?
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  54. @Annatar,

    I think the Volt will beat your Diesel in performance. More torque, better response and plenty of "zero emission" range. It also handles decently.
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  56. Article stated: "because the newest hybrids have a great deal more power than comparable Prius models--54 hp more"

    I think John you have found the "truth" there. I have stated this over and over again. By "limiting" power to the car, it will achieve better MPG. Since the C-Max is heavier AND has more performance, there is NO way it can beat Prius in MPG. At some point, it is simple physics. This is clearly why Prius V is SIGNIFICANTLY LOWER in MPG than the regular Prius (42 vs 50). I am even doubting why the Prius Plugin didn't suffer more since it basically has 150lbs of extra weight over regular Prius (that is like carrying an extra adult).
     
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  57. Continued,

    The ONLY way that C-Max can return 47mpg is to program its ECM to detune the engine to the Prius engine's output, put on some skinny tires like Prius and then throw away 200 lbs of materials and it will do 47mpg. And it certainly can't keep trying to beat Prius V on on-ramp repeatly. That will cut down its MPG for sure.

    Based on my previously calculation in weight differences, it is "reasonable" assume that C-Max Hybrid is capable of 40-43MPG in real world and C-Max Energi is capable of 37-39MPG in real world in its "gasline mode".

    At least the Volt is getting it claimed EPA MPG of 35/37/40 MPG in the "extended mode"....
     
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  58. Well we FINALLY CAN AGREE..its ALL ABOUT the weight and the practice of driving as well as the displacement of the engine....I drove and traded my Prius 5 for the Plug in Prius...they BOTH GET WHAT Toyota promises believe it...YES they are slow at times BUT remember why these vehicles were offered NOT for speed/performance BUT for saving the air we breath and lower dependency on foreign oils....I have Xceeded the EPA and Toyotas REAL WORLD figures with BOTH the Prius 5 2010 and the PHV Plug in....Both achieved with practical driving 56 max for the Prius 5 and in Hybrid for the PHV 58 max....the Mpge has well gone over the 95 Mpge Toyota claims...if u plug instead of pump believe me the Prius Plug blows the hell out of the Energi..
     
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  59. by your logic, my Volt has blown away any C-Max Energi and Prius Plugin.

    I consistently get FAR more EV miles than the EPA 35 miles (2012 model) and I consistanly get more than the 35/37mpg that EPA rates. And I have a "pb" foot and I love my "sports" mode...
     
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  60. Sorry to bust your bubbles again. You do not represent average. I beat EPA in my PiP also.

    Per GM, 60% of the miles are on EV of all Volt owners. That means the remaining 40% are driven with 37 MPG on premium fuel.

    Efficiency of both fuels/engines are important. For the size and capabilities, Energies and PiP are superior to the compact 4 seater Volt.
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  61. Average?

    Read the EPA's own website with owner's reporting or Voltstats.

    It is also clear from other Volt's owner comment.

    You are just a Volt hater in denial.
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  62. On voltstats, the average MPG(cs) is 36.25. Medium is 34.78 MPG. You said you are getting 40 MPG on premium gas. You are neither average nor medium.

    Just so you know, Voltstats has ~7 million miles while GM Volt ticker has ~157 million miles, so it represents about 5% of all Volts.
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  64. In reading your post's I too have expericenced the problem of poor gas milage, but with a twist. I had a 2006 Prius and for a time lived in Calif.. They have different fuel blends for winter and summer. Their winter blend makes the car not able to atain the EPA rated milage, while the summer blend did. Was the author's car subjected to something similar?
     
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  65. Winter MPG can also be impacted by the heat usage.

    Try Premium 100% gas during the winter and see if your Prius get the EPA mileage. My bet is that it will.
     
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  66. I think that cold climate will reduce MPG.
     
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  67. A few C-Max hybrid owners have chimed in on our Prius forum with the same results. Mpg averages in the mid 30s or so. One owner sold a GenIII Prius with 17" wheels that used to get 50mpg on the same route his new C-Max only gets mid-high 30s. IMO the 17" wheels and extra horsepower/weight is killing the C-Max. Just wait until a C-Max owner changes tires away from the ultra-efficient Energy Saver A/S (OE tire) to a non-LRR tire. It's going to hurt mpg big time!
     
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  68. We have the Cmax Hybrid. 4400 miles. Average mpg over that period is 40.7 mpg. Most of those are freeway miles, 65-70 mph. Short jaunts around town, where speeds are likely to be lower, I will get 44 mpg.
     
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  69. I have a new 2013 Fusion. I am getting low-mid 30s in the city and mid-to-high 30s on the highway.

    I drive carefully and make every attempt to maximize EV Mode. As far as I can tell, 47 MPG is not realistic.
     
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  70. I just bought a C-Max. Nice car. 500 miles so far. If I drive it like my last car (Honda CRV) which I will call left lane driving I get about 37-38 MPG. If I drive it with fuel efficiency in mind which I will call right lane driving I get low 40's. On my last small trip I got 44 MPG. Gas with Ethanol, outside temperature, road conditions, will all effect the mileage. It does have more than adequate power for freeway merging and affords good room for the driver and passenger. I have really enjoyed the tech also. I test drove the Prius when deciding on a car. No comparison. I may have sacrificed a few MPG but have a much more pleasant car to drive - feels like a crossover but gets great mileage.
     
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  71. Its still the fact that if you mislead the public it is going to affect sales and basically put that particular vehicle in a situation where the consumer needs to settle for less an Epa average on a car that is MORE Xpensive than most is a BIG DEAL when you are talking about an Electrified Vehicle....Toyota may not be the MOST comfortable choice BUT I have owned Fords many times in a younger state and they WERE always less on the Epa figures...the Prius line is created to achieve TRUE figures and IT GENUINELY DOES show that testing/research is more fluent with Toyota...56 PLUS in my Phev Plug In Prius...also my Prius 5 2010 achieved 56 Mpg...adversely the Mpge on my Plug in has gone well over its 95 Toyota figure more than 103..
     
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  72. But even at high 30s and low 40s MPG, C-Max is still a practical vehicle for many people. Less MPG than Prius, but FAR BETTER performance. Even at 40 mpg city/mixed range, it is better than most of the hybrids out there.
     
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  73. Also, your "puriest" view of Hybrids have to equal HIGH MPG by sacrificing all performance is EXACTLY one of the reason that HYBRIDs aren't more popular.

    I am glad that Ford is coming out with a relatively higher MPG hybrid that doesn't sag performance too much while it still have good space and utility.
     
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  74. We have a 2013 Fusion Hybrid on order. When we did an overnight test drive we registered 46.7 MPG is a mix of highway and city driving. We drove just over 100 miles in the two days and did about 75 highway miles and 25 city miles. Our MPG between city and highway were basically identical. We registered 45.9 on the first 35-40 highway miles home from dealership and then the average went up to about 46.3 after the 25 city miles and then the final 35-40 highway miles back to the dealer brought us up to 46.7 MPG overall. We weren't trying to hypermile or anything, just drive normally, like we drive our 250+ HP Saab sedan...
     
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  75. Is that MPG "read" by the car computer or you actually did a tank fill test and divide it by the miles traveled?
     
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  76. Joel, I just put in an order for the 2013 Fusion Hybrid on Friday 11/23/12. I hope your experience as well as Joe Mehaffey's experiences becomes a real experience once the vehicle is delivered. The vehicle I test drove was a nice drive but it never made it to 40 mpg even though I am not a lead foot driver. Since I do believe weather temperature does effect this this type of vehicle. I don't know what your locale is but I am in the Wash. DC area where we have a change of seasons but no extreme frigid weather below 15 degrees or extreme hot temperatures above 105. Tell me more.
     
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  77. I guess it is better than the Fusion Energi in this case since the Fusion Energi will cost about $40k with the new announced price and it will only get 40 MPG...
     
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  78. I haggled price with several dealers of this 2013 Fusion hybrid with a moon roof as the only desirable option for me and I found one that would go below 27k without charging destination fee's. DC residents are exempt on 40+ mpg hybrid and electric vehicles so even with outrageous Va. dealerships processing fee's I should drive it away for an even 27k with a moonroof. Someone on another site says that the Prius in extreme winter temperatures loses about 5 mpg so I'll relax about the EPA "cooked" numbers. If the car were to cost me more than 30K I would be tempted to cancel my order but I am okay with the car if it doesn't get the magical 47 mpg.
     
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  79. DC residents I meant to say are exempt from sales tax on hybrid and electric vehicles.
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  80. Keith, Can I ask where you started your search? I'm in the DC area too and am interested in the Fusion Hybrid. My 02 Camry has been sucking up the gas and only been getting around 24mpg in combined driving recently. Even if it isn't 47mpg on the Fusion, a 35mpg would be a huge difference for me
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  81. brickster720, all I can say is if you are still interested in the 2013 Fusion hybrid after all the controversy with the mpg I would recommend two organizations. CR's build and buy program (small fee)which gives you a listing of the dealers in the DC area that participate and (free)CarWoo.com.
    I am not a haggling expert but with CR's program you will have a good target price for what ever car you decide on. go
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  82. Joel, it would be cool if you posted your numbers to fueleconomy.gov so the world can see what you're getting. There's only two posts up there on the 13 Fusion Hybrid and neither are stellar. It'd be good to have yours up there if you feel like doing so. Bring up that average a bit!
     
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  83. I have had my C-max hybrid since October 11th, 2012. With about 2200 miles on it, my mpg is 43. It has steadily increased over the past few weeks. I would say about 60-75% of my trips are calculated over 47 mpg. People have their panties in a twist over something that is controlled solely by their driving habits. If you want drive like a hothead, you'll get bad gas mileage. That's how it works in all cars. If you drive smooth and steady and plan ahead for stops and traffic conditions you will get good gas mileage. The EPA doesn't test cars on a race track, they have a very controlled set of conditions and a driving regimen that is used exactly the same on all cars so that they can be effectively compared on their mpg ratings.
     
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  84. I'll make you a deal. I won't characterize your driving habits, which I know nothing about, if you won't characterize mine. I do NOT "drive like a hothead". I have made every effort to get good mileage, aiming for as much time in EV mode as possible. After about 1100 miles on my 2013 Fusion and 3 tanks of gas, I have yet to achieve even 40 MPG, much less 47.
     
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  85. I agree with Tom. I have about 700 miles on my new cmax, and am only getting around 36 mpg. And I am doing my best to drive very conservatively. I really like the car, but most people are not going to get anywhere near 47 mpg.
     
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  86. I had a breakthrough today driving my C-Max.

    See my post:

    http://fordcmaxhybridforum.com/index.php?/topic/542-had-a-breakthrough-regarding-mpg/
     
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  87. Nicholas,
    Thanks for pointing us to this forum.
    http://fordcmaxhybridforum.com/
    Go to the Fuel Mileage section and there are lots of entries by owners about the mileage they are able to obtain.
    Reading over these helps one understand why there is variation in the mpg's different people are experiencing.
     
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  88. So, it requires "special technique" to achieve the MPG.

    When are we going to have a car that can reach the EPA MPG without any "special technique"? Just drive it like a "regular car" and it will produce the EPA rating, driving it with "special technique" and it will do better than EPA rating...

    That seems to be the case in my Volt...
     
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  89. The GenII and GenIII Prius do not have to be driven in a special way to achieve the EPA numbers. I hit the highway and set the CC at 70mph for 5hrs and netted 52mpg for the trip. In ideal weather and a little effort 60+mpg tanks were the norm in my GenIII. If I chose to use special techniques I could achieve 70+mpg tanks over 700 miles. If I felt like using Pulse & Glide everywhere I could do well over 100mpg! The Volt is great but so is the Prius in terms of achieving EPA numbers without using special techniques.
     
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  90. I also heard that so called "pulsing" the accelerator seem to increase the Prius MPG. Maybe the "punch and glide" is just a "longer frequency" version of that "pulsing" technique...
     
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  91. I'm one of the two people who has submitted numbers to the fueleconomy.gov website, and certainly I'm getting the better mileage of the two.

    I find I get mixed results - on my drive to work in the mornings, I get better than 50mpg. On the way home, I count myself lucky if I can get 40. But I've been driving in heavy LA traffic and most of the first week was wet weather.

    In fairness, I'm not the most light-footed of drivers, and I've come to the Fusion from a Mustang V8, but I'm confident that my average will top 40mpg as time goes by.
     
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  92. Not only they promise false high mpg but they charge more money also.
     
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  93. USA Today just published their (positive) review of the 2013 Fusion, including the hybrid. They report 38.8 MPG in mixed driving with the hybrid. That is roughly consistent with what I am seeing.
     
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  94. Dennis Chin wrote: "The role of a HV battery is to be used when the ICE is inefficient. Generally, if the gas engine can be shut down more often, MPG will increase. "

    Again, you are only partially correct here. Hybrid using electric motor to supplement ICE b/c ICE in those hybrid cars are Atkinson cycle engine. It has higher efficiency but TERRIBEL power delivering curves for everyday use and especially at lower rpm where the torque/hp are both very low. In order to supplement that, higher torque DC motors are used to compliment that "gap". That is why both C-Max and Prius use it.

    To saving fuel, stop/start can be achieved without any battery or electric motor.
     
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  95. Little Dragon,
    Stop/start doesn't matter much in highway driving.
     
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  96. "Little dragon"? Wrong, Dawn Dragon.

    Well, "hybrid" mode doesn't really do much on a long distance cruise on the hwy either...
     
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  97. Xialong,

    As much as you don't like Prii, the fact is that it is universally appreciated as a very efficient car and has saved many supertanker's worth of fuel. We know that you don't like them but your arguments are just your opinions and they detract from what we are all here for: to be more efficient.

    A detractor to your choice might say that carrying 400 pounds worth of gasoline powered generation equipment for a vehicle that is primarily used as an EV is wasteful. You made a decision to buy the Volt because it fit your needs and the Prius owners have done the same. Live and let live. Let's get on with what's most important, saving energy and reducing our effects on our environment.
     
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  98. Okay, maybe you don't get my point. I was "attacking" Prius (PIP) using the "same" logic that Dennis Chin was using in his "REPEATED" attack of Volt. All he ever mentioned about the Volt is its EPA MPG in extended range. We all know that Volt engineers made a "trade off" in "extended range" efficiency b/c of the battery weight. With the current battery technology, it is basically a trade off between BEV with no long range capability, EREV like Volt which meet most daily driving need and still a decent long range MPG or Prius which have great long range MPG but aren't as efficient as those EVs in short trips.

    I have been saying that already that Prius is a great car if you drive many long trips. Volt is great for the typical commuters.
     
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  99. Perhaps you have not realized that Pip gained EV miles and reduces emission while maintaining 5 seats, flat cargo floor and 50 MPG gas engine.

    Volt increased emission, gave up a rear seat, small cargo volume, and 37 MPG on premium. For more EV miles? Not a good trade off without even considering the price tag.

    C-MAX Energi gave up a flat cargo for more EV miles. It also gave up gas MPG for higher EV speed (PSD ratio regeared). Not a bad trade off.
     
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  100. Pip gained a "merely" 6 miles all Electric miles by EPA or barely 11 miles in mixed driving. But it gave UP 150lbs in weight which resulted in WORSE PERFORMANCE, HANDLING and 1 star in SAFETY. Also, significant increase in price. Sure, if you don't care about performance, but SAFETY???

    C-Max Energi gave up the same thing, worse performance, lots of cargo space (by spitting the battery pack) but only 20 miles range. Still about 1/2 of the Volt's 38 miles.

    So far, we have seen real world MPG is similar between Energi and Volt, weight are similar. Yet Volt has extra 17 miles in EV miles. Those are what is superior.

    Plus, GCR has indicated that it is almost "impossible" during their test drive to stay in EV mode while driving.
     
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  101. I am getting 12-13 miles on EV in mixed driving, easily. I have no trouble staying in EV mode. Just yesterday, I went up 6 parking lot floors in one of those spiral climb. I didn't even use half the battery power. There was no need for ICE to kick in.

    There were plenty of times when 5th seat was useful (giving friends a ride to public transportation or dropping off those on my way home). I initially drive in EV and switch to 50 MPG gas engine on the highway. When I got to Manhattan, I stay in pure EV and then drive back out on gas once I reached the bridge.

    I have carried 55" TV and a full size mattress in Prius. The point is, a midsize car cost about $3,000 more than a compact. Compact cars are supposed to be more fuel efficient.
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  102. You seem to care about the 5th person seating a lot.

    Out of all the miles you drive, how many miles were used to carry the 5th person?

    IMHO, when there is need for 5, time to get a minivan.

    In all my decades of driving, there are only about 4 trips (less than 300 miles) EVER that I carried 5 people in my car...
     
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  103. But Dennis still attacks the Volt and keep mentioning the 37MPG over and over again while EPA.gov clearly listed the MPG reported by many owners being FAR HIGHER than the PIP's.

    Volt is superior to PIP in about 80% of the factors out there and only fall short in 3 area. Size, gas mode MPG and price (which is arguable after rebates). Just about everything else, Volt is superior. Yet, he has NEVER admit ANY OF FACTs where Volt is superior.
     
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  104. Look, Volt uses more electricity but less gasoline. It does not use either fuel as efficient as PiP or C-Max Energi.

    Volt is rated at 37 MPG while Energi is rated at 41 MPG and PiP is rated 50 MPG. PiP has far higher MPG than Volt.

    In term of electricity consumption, PiP would use 29 kWh/100 mile (plus 0.2 gallon of gas). Energi uses 34 kWh/100mi. Volt uses 36 kWh/100mi. Clearly, PiP consumes less electricity.

    As for EV/HV ratio, it depends on one's commute. People within 10 miles commute (29%) will pick PiP. Those with 11 to 21 miles (22%) will pick C-Max Energi. Those with 22 to 40 miles (27%) will pick Volt. 41 to 70 miles (15%) will pick the Leaf.

    http://www.bts.gov/publications/omnistats/volume_03_issue_04/html/figure_02.html
     
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  105. Those "so called" efficiency aren't taking into the Performance factors.

    Performance impact efficiency and you have been side steping that for a long long time b/c you know you lose on That.

    Tesla S is worse in your silly logic of "efficiency".

    You are good at twisting facts to prove your junk logic.
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  106. BTW, I have repeatly gave Prius where the credit is due (MPG benchmark, getting great MPG in real life, cleaner than diesel. I defended it against Annatar in Diesel vs. Hybrid argument). I even said I would consider a Prius V.

    I just don't like Prius Plugin where I said in that case Prius is a better buy. Prius excels in long range MPG or gas mode. Why bother to spend the money getting a "almost useless" 11 miles EV miles when the advantage of it is its "gas mode" MPG? Most people agree that it is a "weak" attempt by Toyota at "plug in" market.

    Yet, Dennis attacks the "BEST selling" benchmark in Plugin market Volt for its 'extended range' mpg...
     
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  107. Anyone who has been following all of this knows that the Volt is achieving far beyond the 37mpg since they are mostly used as EV's. Gasless is best and the Volt is better IMO than the PIP just due to it's vastly greater EV capability. But this is just my opinion and nothing more.
     
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  108. Volts getting better than 37mpg in gas hybrid (charge sustaining) mode has nothing to do with how often they operate in EV mode. Volts are regularly getting both better gas mpg in CS mode AND better EV range in EV mode than the advertised EPA ratings.

    I agree with you and Xiaolong about the PiP, however.
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  109. Another "annoying" feature of the Prius Plugin is the charging port. Just about every other "plug in" car has the charging port on the driver side or on the front of the car except for Prius Plugin. Why? B/c its fuel door is on the driver side and it had the charging port on its driver side during its pilot program. But decided to "save money" by reduce the cable length to move the charge port to the rear passenger side.

    I know plenty of the PIP owners really "hate" that feature. They wish it is closer to the front or driver side. It is just another proof that PIP is "gas first and electric second". Unlike every other plugin cars, where charging port is "primary" source where gas is secondary.
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  110. Come on! How about 10 hours annoying charging time?

    I finish mine in 3 hours.
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  111. There are more comments in this thread
  112. 11 EV miles is plenty for me since I frequently do 3 miles trip. It is great to live in the live in a city where everything is close.

    If I need to go further, I'll jump on the highway and use gas or a blend of both (EV-BOOST).

    Every plugin starts in EV mode by default. The condition at which gas is used, differs. Some are range dependant, some are driving condition dependant. Almost all (except early Volts) are driver selectable between EV and HV.

    PiP is awesome for someone living in a city like me who prefers efficiency (and emission) of both fuels without giving up functionality or utility.
     
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  113. Well, if you frequently do 3 miles, then PIP is indeed "enough" for you. But your "gain" from the Plugin is so minimal, why bother with it?

    You could have bought a Leaf and Kept your old Prius, it would have been "greener" as a total solution...
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  114. Also, most people who live in the "city" rarely need a 5 passenger vehicle...

    If would have been cheaper and more "green" if you rode your bike and get on with Zip cars...
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  115. I am now at 34% EV and 66% HV. 1/3 EV and 2/3 Hybrid.

    1/3 of those miles (short trips) on hybrid mode would get about 38 MPG (done it before I was able to charge). Clearly, using EV miles for those short trips is very beneficial. Charging time is short as well. To me, it doesn't make sense to charge 10 hours just to drive 30 mins on the highway.

    My 2006 Prius went to my brother which will replace his truck (21 MPG) for his daily commute.

    PiP is our only car as my wife takes public transportation. I like the convenience of owning and our garage doesn't fit two cars.
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  116. WELL AGAIN tOYOTA COMES AHEAD....FOR 2015 MY INSIDE SOURCH TELLS ME THATWHAT YOU SAY IS very TRUE...THE Prius and the Plug in will have ALL WHEEL drive for 2015...the system will be of the on demand type 60 % front 30 % rear plus a more sporty aerodynamic promise the car shall also XCEED 60 mpg Hybrid and OVER 120-130 Mpge...well I will be traded and saving for this deal..I knew that Toyota would Top the Prius line as they did for the Camry already...4 wheel will be a step in the right direction as to the HP needed to bring up the performance level and forgot to MENTION the Prius liftback and the Plug in models will be get this 150 to 175 lbs lighter...how this will be achieved is thru lighter material used in the body structure..great deal
     
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  117. There are more comments in this thread
  118. "It appears that two new hybrid cars from Ford--the 2013 C-Max Hybrid hatchback and the 2013 Fusion Hybrid sedan--may not deliver real-world gas mileage that's anywhere near their 47-mpg EPA ratings."

    Now do you believe me when I write that EPA is not to be trusted?

    Of course, an argument could be made that Ford submitted these claims to the EPA, and that the EPA just slapped their approval on them; but even if that were so, how can one trust an agency which does not consistently verify manufacturer's claims?

    If you want accurate fuel ratings, Europeans calculate the correct numbers.
     
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  119. Europeans give even more "optimistic" figures!
     
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  120. I think Hyundai and Kia just found out that the EPA does in fact verify manufacturer claims, especially when owners consistently complain they are unable to achieve the EPA numbers. Given how many Ford owners are as much as 10mpg lower than the EPA rating, I think Ford may have some trouble with the EPA in the near future - we'll see...
     
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  121. Has anyone tried driving out a tank with the Cruise control on?

    If i want better highway mileage, i try to leave the cruise control on in my Insight
     
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  122. The mention of Kia/Hynudai sounds good.
     
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  123. I read the whole stack of replies. Nobody mentioned tire pressure. If the C-Maxes are delivered to customers with sub-standard pressure (ie. 33psi) then mileage will be poor. My Volt was delivered to me with 33psi. Not good - it's supposed to be 38psi or higher.

    Pump your tires to a good hybrid/plug-in rating and see how mpg changes.
     
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  124. Agreed.

    I set mine to 40PSI. Also, I drive in "L" mode all the time. It increased my MPG significantly in the stop/go situation and it saved my brakes a lot...
     
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  125. Maybe, but handling will suffer.
     
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  126. Every place this article is re-posted I find lots of FORD bashing, and product bashing, but no one seems to be asking how the EPA came up with those numbers. Isn't that the real story here?
     
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  127. @Moose: In nine out of ten cases, the car manufacturers self-certify and submit their results to the EPA, which approves and publishes them. The EPA tests *some* cars on its own, but only a fraction of the rated cars each year. Not sure which bucket the C-Max falls into.
     
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  128. I just filled up my 2013 Fusion hybrid.

    I got 330 miles using 9.7 gallons of gas: 34 MPG. This was with 90% stop-and-go city driving. I do better on the highway.

    I get the best mileage when driving low highway speeds, around 60 MPH. At that speed you get the usual efficiencies that come with highway driving, but it is slow enough that I also get a considerable amount of time in EV mode. Currently, the speed limit for EV mode is 62 MPH. If Ford could get this up to 72 MPH--which is more realistic for travel on the freeway--the Fusion/C-Max could return truly excellent highway mileage.
     
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  129. I bought a C-Max Energi on 11/18. The Vehicle had 15 miles when I bought it from the showroom floor with fuel topped off by the dealership. Now I have 120 miles and combined 103 mpg with 50% city 50% hwy. One way distance to work is 11 miles but the EV only battery won't get the full 21 miles for as soon as you turn on defrost or just the the fan to circulate air, it would drop to 18 mile range. But my fuel tank is still showing full so didn't have to fill up yet.
     
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  130. Great! Stay in EV mode as long as possible. Once you go electric, you won't want to go back to gas...
     
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  131. Good stuffs. Keep it coming. Are you using EV Auto or EV Now?
     
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  132. 99% of the time I am using EV now. I've placed it in Auto just to see if I can tell the difference, which I can't. I've also placed it in EV Later to see what is the MPG if I use throttle and glide. I'm not able to post my real world mpg on FuelEconomy.gov because they don't have a section for C-Max Energi. On my display the combined MPG is 124 and gasoline MPG is around 62.
     
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  133. Dennis Chin wrote:"If you are getting 3.6 to 4 miles per kWh, you must be driving below 60 mph"

    This clearly shows that Dennis Chin has NO clue on what he is talking about. Plenty of Volt owners have done it with 65mph+ speed.

    In fact, I usually get that from 70mph+ cruise. You are just a Volt hater in denial.
     
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  134. Dennis Chin wrote again: "Don't you know your average consumption? Why are you guessing and giving me a range?"

    Volt can be programmed to "pre heat or cool" the cabin. So, it differs when that happens whether that energy is used to heat the cabin or driving. Also, when I charge at "other public" location where it is just outlet, there is no way to know that amount.

    I am precise, unlike you who have no clue on how the Volt can be programmed b/c all you know is how your Prius Plugin functions...
     
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  135. Dennis Chin (aka Volt hater) wrote again with his clueless comment: "Per GM, 60% of the miles are on EV of all Volt owners. That means the remaining 40% are driven with 37 MPG on premium fuel."

    Even with that math, that is 37/0.4 = 92.5 MPG, according to GCR, that is how they calculate it "miles per gallon". Much higher than the 30% of the Pip "MPG" of which 50/0.7 = 71.42 MPG.


    "Efficiency of both fuels/engines are important. "

    You are SO WRONG, I don't even know where to start.

    I would rather trade EV miles for gas b/c regardless how you look at it, EV miles ARE FAR MORE efficient than GAS MILEs. YOu can't deny that fact even if you want to.

    And you are ONLY saying this b/c deep inside, you are a GAS FAN. Nuff said.
     
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  136. Another proof that Dennis Chin have NO IDEA on what he talks about and likes to "TWIST the truth" to show his ignorance and bias. That is a sad day for Pip fans...

    He wrote: "Come on! How about 10 hours annoying charging time?
    I finish mine in 3 hours. "

    Volt and Pip both charges at max rate of 3.3KW. Since your "battery" is TINY, so it take less time to fill up. Again, twist facts into your PIP's advantage.

    BTW, Tesla S takes even longer, what is your silly point? Your Pip is better than Tesla S then b/c it takes shorter time for a full charge?
     
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  137. Also, with the Volt, your 10 hr charging is good enough for your daily 3 mile trip so that you don't have charge again for another 12 days...

    Silly logic even for your case.
     
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  138. "50 MPG hybrid is as clean as 100 MPGe EV. Look up the emissions of 50 MPG Prius on fueleconomy.gov site and 99 MPGe Leaf on EPA beyond tailpipe emission site. "

    Again, clueless. It varies from state to state. It has NO validity using average since 1/3 of those EVs and Plugins are sold in California where its power grid are FAR cleaner than average.

    Personally, I have never considered CO2 as an emission. But that is another topic.

    Also, the CO2 emission on gas doesn't include all the refinery, distribution of the gasoline and mining of it. Another "twisted" fact by you.
     
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  139. Also, "dirty" electricy market such as WV, MT, WY has very little popular and lower buyers in EV/Plugins by a large margin.

    The popular CA and Pacific NW have very clean source and account for major portion of the sales.

    So, using the "average" US electric grid to gauge the majority market for those EVs/Plugins is a typical tactic OIL COMPANY Supporters use to skew the data in favor of gasoline cars.

    It shows your true gas bias, again.
     
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  140. Even though this is off topic, I gotta respond to this to prevent misinformation from spreading further.

    Tailpipe CO2 emissions are multiplied by a national average factor of 1.25 to account for emissions associated with gasoline production, e.g., drilling, refining, and transportation, etc. (See 75 FR 25437, May 7, 2010)

    http://www.fueleconomy.gov/feg/label/calculations-information.shtml

    I am fuel neutral. I use both fuel when they are beneficial in my PiP, just like C-Max Energi.

    You are EV bias and thought electricity has zero emission.
     
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  141. Use NYC zip code and my zip code and answer is that Volt is clean if NOT cleaner. The link is provided below.

    Learn to read.
     
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  142. Using National "average" is a misleading. That is a typical way to argue against all EV advocates. Using your localized source is the best. Your website allow user to enter your own zip code to calculate the emission for that region. In my region of SF Bay Area, Volt is lower than Pip. In your area of NYC with zip code of 10001, Volt is the same as PIP. So, your emission varies by region. But using a first order statistic "average" to argue your point is only "pulling wools" over people's eyes.

    I am EV biased. B/c in my region, Electricity is cleaner and WE (CALIFORNIAN) work hard at it with our money and our voting power.

    Electricity generated from solar panels on my roof and my work place has ZERO emission.
     
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  143. I guess Dennis Chin likes to argue just to argue with his silly logic.

    He is attacking EV commmutiy as a whole now.

    He wrote: "If the panels 43 hooked up to the grid, use the grid average because some else is getting yooour solar electricity while you may be getting coal electricity when charging at night."

    If I put $1,000 into the bank on Monday and get it out on Wednesday, is it still my money?

    If I put the 10KWh into the grid during the day, and suck 10KWh out at night, it is still valid. Here is why, during the day the power plant will need to generate 10KWh less and at night it will generate 10KWh more. But since most of the powerplant are under capacity at night, it is actually saving emission.

    CA's PGE is less than 10% coal.
     
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  144. It doesn't work like a bank account because 1kWh of renewable electricity is worth more than 1kWh of coal electricity.

    It is more like stock market where the price varies when you buy or sell. You buy low and sell high. In this case, you maybe buying coal electricity low and selling solar electricity at higher premium.

    Sorry, you don't get to make a profit and claim you are using solar electricity.

    I am not attacking EV community. Buying and promoting renewable electricity increases the green electricity percentage in our national grid. I pay about 3 cents more per kWh to promote it as well.
     
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  145. Again, you are clueless or just ignorant on solar.
    I am on FIXED rate plan. No time varying. Got it?
     
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  146. On a "fixed" electricity rate, you generate xKWh and use xKWh, same price regardless.

    Time varying rate only allow solar panel owners to "profit" from it. I don't b/c I use power during all time of the day. So, I am on fixed rate plan.

    Solar panels generate FAR MORE power than what I use to power my Volt.

    Profits don't equal to emission.

    Don't mix the two.

    Again, you are showing your bias against solar and green energy...
     
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  147. "Which household is greener? #1 with Volt and solar panels or #2 with PiP and solar panels? "

    Whichever household drives more on EV miles generated by the solar panels.

    FYI, I charge at work too under the 1MW solar panels.
     
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  148. @Dennis Chin,

    Your attitude is just proving my point even farther. The biggest threat to EVs are high MPG Prius and Prius fans like you. You are so biased toward Prius and its solution, so you are willing to find flaws in just about every other designs regardless of use case.

    You still haven't answered me the following question.

    Why does Lexus CT200 and HS250 have worse MPG when they are similar to Prius?

    Why does C-Max Energi suffer in its MPG comparing to the hybrid?

    In your PiP, how many miles are Electric and how many miles are Gas?

    In all the miles driven in your Prius, what % miles are driven with 5 people instead of
     
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  149. To all the Volt haters out there.

    Name me another current production car that performs better than Volt and can go longer than 35 EV miles that cost less than $50k...

    The upcoming SPARK EV is the only one. But it is NOT released yet.

    Why 35 miles? B/C majority (75%) of people drive less than that per day. Also, majority of the vehicle haul less than 2 people most of the time. Look around you during rush hour, most of the drivers don't even qualify for Carpool lanes...

    If Toyota can come out with 60 electric miles Plugin Prius with range extender and cost about the same as the Volt, I will trade my Volt in tomorrow... Even if it sits 2 only.
     
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  150. Well, how about Leaf?

    People with 20 miles commute are not going to get the Volt. Most would rather get C-Max Energi with midsize interior and 5 seats that runs on regular gas.

    As pointed out above, people with 22 to 40 miles trips are only 27% -- of those that can accept 4 seater compact car.
     
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  151. Maybe people want better handling, better performance and more EV range and more EV performance.

    If everyone only cares about MPG and size, then everyone would have driven Prius. But that didn't happen. And I glad that it didn't happen.
     
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  152. Based on the sales of plugin market in the US, Volt is dominating.

    Volt is the most fun to drive among all the cars here. People love fun cars with better technology. Leaf is a great car, I would have bought one if it has more range. I know plenty of people who commute with only 15-20 miles bought a Volt b/c it just drives better and it is made in USA, unlike PIP.
     
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  153. Dennis Chin wrote: "Per EPA, using US average electricity, Volt would produce more greenhouse emission than a regular Prius (260 vs 222 g/mi). "

    Show me the link?

    In fuel economy.gov you do a comparison. I put in 2013 Ford C-Max Energi, 2012 Pip, 2012 Volt and 2012 Leaf. Here is the link:
    http://www.fueleconomy.gov/feg/Find.do?action=sbs&id=33336&id=32484&id=31618&id=32154&#tab2

    On tailpipe emission alone with "*Based on 45% highway, 55% city driving, 15,000 annual miles and current fuel prices", Volt is 87g/mi, C-Max Energi is 110g/mi, Pip is 133 g/mi, Leaf is 0g/mi.

    Now, you would have to customize for your region to add upstream. Using my region, Leaf is at 120g/mile and PIP/VOLT/C-Max are same at 190g/mile.
     
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  154. using NYC 10001 zip code, the results are the same at 190g/miles. That is using the power grid.

    Now back to oil usage. 2012 Volt is at 3.4 barrel of oil. 2013 C-Max Energi is at 3.7 Barrel and 2012 Pip is at 4.7 Barrel and Leaf is at 0.2 barrel.

    Pip is still the worst.

    Now, if I use the 2013 Volt, the oil usage drops to 3.1 barrel. And my emission in my Bay Area is down to 180 g/miles and stays the same for your NYC zipcode of 10001.

    So, at least in my region (one of the biggest Volt and Prius, Prius Plugin market), Volt is CLEANER than PIP even in your version of definition.
     
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  155. There are so many posts from dawn dragon. Has he/she got any better thing to do? Just wonder . . .
     
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  156. @Xiaolong: I have to agree with Sean here. I have just moderated a total of 23 messages in a row from you countering Dennis Chin's arguments. That's a new record for number of consecutive comments by any poster in > 3.5 years of GCR.

    Let's give the Volt vs Prius Plug-In a rest in this comment thread, shall we? It is, remember, an article about *Ford C-Max Hybrid* gas mileage ... not about the Volt OR the Prius Plug-In.

    I'll leave the same note for @Dennis Chin on one of his comments too.
     
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  157. The last few messages on CO2 emission included all the major existing EV/Plugins. It has C-Max, Volt, Pip and Leaf. I also provided the links that anybody can use to do their own calculation and comparison.

    Well, when you are passionate about a topic, you tend to comment a lot. I would think that is good for GCR coverage.

    I will save some "bandwidth" for others then...
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  158. Setting the "lies and bias" straight is important to a passionate EREV fan.
     
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  159. Change it to show both tailpipe and upstream GHG emission. It links to http://www.fueleconomy.gov/feg/Find.do?action=bt2.

    In there, you'll see the figure for both tailpipe and upstream emission.

    C-Max Energi is 240 g/mi using national average electricity while the hybrid version is rated 236 g/mi.

    http://www.fueleconomy.gov/feg/Find.do?zipCode=75201&year=2013&vehicleId=33336&action=bt3

    http://www.fueleconomy.gov/feg/Find.do?action=sbs&id=33010#tab2
     
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  160. If you use the same link and you can put your ZIP CODE in there to get a "customized" tailpipe and upstream GHG emission. It shows 2013 Volt having the lower Emission at 182 g/mile where Pip is at 190g/miles. Using the NYC 10001 zip code, it will show the same emission at 190g/mi for both PIP and Volt.

    I would saying CA is the largest single market for Volt, Prius or Plugin Prius. So, in those market, Volt is lower in emission.

    Using EPA's "AVERAGE" is misleading b/c many location where dirty coal power is used have very small car market and small plugin market.
     
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  161. This will be my last post in this thread.

    If you plot the emissions of PiP, Prius and Volt of the states, you'll get something like this. Red flags are easy to see.

    http://priuschat.com/attachments/greenhouse-gas-emission-png.41249
     
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  162. I would be disappointed if I couldn't get the EPA ratings out of my Volt while driving the car nicely; Tips and tricks are for those wanting to get well over the EPA rating. The average driver doesn't want to have to think about how they are driving, they just want to get in and go. They just need to be real with us that's all.
     
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  163. Xialong Li, you're a real jerk. Other people can share their opinions without insults. Why can't you? Not smart enough to do it respectfully?
     
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  164. I don't insult anyone who tells the truth or don't twist any facts like Dennis Chin.

    When he stop being a biased Volt hater with "actual" fact, then I will show him some more respect. I don't respect haters or anyone who support haters...
     
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  165. Also, feel free to go back to read all his comment and you can read all my comments too. They are availble on the GCR. It is a feature here. Nice one that I like.

    Looking back at all his comments, he finds every chance at "attacking" the Volt with his "biased arguement". I poked "holes" in all his arguement yet he goes back repeating them in every new article that he finds a chance on.

    When you repeat "lies" or "twisted facts" to insult the BENCHMARK product with highest owner satisfaction and highest love, then in their eyes, you become the real jerk.
     
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  166. I keep replying to him because he is learning and coming back with good questions -- in another word, constructive discussion despite the insults.
     
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  167. And you keep come back with your biased fact twisted to prove that your Prius Plugin is better?
     
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  168. I bought a CMAX SEL and I'm getting about 35-36 mpg. Almost 5k miles, but no oil changes yet, and I'm hoping that will help. Needless to say, this is going to be a problem if the mpg doesn't improve. I've looked at a few websites, and real world drivers are getting better than advertised mpg - except the CMAX, which is getting about 7 mpg lower than what Ford is advertising.

    This is a fun, well designed car, but had I known this, I would have bought a 2012 Civic and saved myself 15k.
     
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  169. Just to clarify, when I said "real world drivers", I was referring to people driving other manufacturers, i.e, Toyota, Honda, VW, etc. Ford is the only one that seems to be getting lower, and it's significantly lower.
     
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  170. C-Max hybrid can learn your usual route and optimize for it. You should see a boost starting from 1,000 to 3,000 miles according to the manual.

    It is very sensitive to the speed above 62 mph. If you can stay below 62 mph most of the time, then it should be easier to achieve EPA rating.
     
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  171. Review and test drive of Ford CMax by CNET.

    "CNET's overall fuel economy for the C-Max Hybrid came in at 45.1 mpg, with an ample amount of freeway and city driving."

    http://reviews.cnet.com/coupe-hatchback/2013-ford-c-max/4505-10867_7-35426711.html
     
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  172. Motorweek just tested the C-Max hybrid. In mixed highway and city driving they got 38.5 MPG.
     
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  173. I have about 1200 miles on my 2013 Fusion hybrid, and I am pretty confident about what it can and cannot do regarding mileage. It can easily get the rated 47 MPG on any trip (I got that on one today) in which you can regularly maintain the EV mode. However, there are many situations in which that's not possible.

    For example, when it is cold it will not go into to EV mode regardless of driving style until the system is fully warmed up. So any short trip on a cold morning you will likely see mileage in the 20s. Also, any highway travel above 62 MPH will not go into EV mode.

    Under real world conditions, mid-to-high 30s is about the best you can hope for.
     
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  174. John and others,

    An observation and a question about the CMAX Energi:
    1. Using a tape measure, the Cargo space (under the cover) measured out at about 6 ft3. Far short of the official value of 19 ft3! Yet it was enough to hold a large suitcase and two small suitcases without affecting visibility. So it passes my test.
    2. All-electric range. I've test driven two Energis and both showed the max as 12 miles when fully charged. Both salesmen said that this was because of how the car had been driven thus far (presumably on the highway and with the heater running?), and it would improve upon further use. Does this explanation sound credible? What experience do Energi owners have with the range?
     
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  175. My CMAX is lucky if it pushes 37 mpgs. Averages about 34-35 mpgs. Mileage is so bad I even took it in for service yesterday at 2K and was told it could be 15K before I get closer to 47 (not the 1-3K listed in the manual).

    I think Ford has a serious problem on their hands. I like the car overall, but mileage (which is why many, including myself) would buy the car is not even close. I am accepting it probably never will be. It'll be interesting to see how this plays out.
     
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  176. I have the C-MAX. 2,800 miles, average is still around 38 mpg. Yes, some trips I get 47 or better, but those tend to have a lot of down hill and obviously it's rare since I am still averaging about 38. I drove very, very carefully (conservative with the gas pedal, gentle slow braking, and using cruise control) for a whole week, mostly alone and occasionally with one adult passenger and the best average I could get was 38.6.
     
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  177. Hi ... Just read you are gathering data on actual fuel economy for C-Max hybrid ... I have owned mine nearly 2 months and am averaging 43.6 miles per gallon driving normally ... that is a distinct inprovement over my escape Hybrid that averaged abot 30.5 MPG ... if you have questions please call at 330-716-8488 .... thanks ... randy walter
     
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  178. I have had a c-max energi for about 3 weeks.

    It electric rated range of 21 miles. It seems pretty easy to attain this as long as you get braking scores >90% and keep the speed below 55 and the heat/ac off. I have personally gotten about 23 miles range between germantown md and frederick md using md 355 (a 2-lane highway, not a freeway) and about 21 between germantown md and westminster md. This is using trip odometer, until gas engine starts.

    Its gas rating is "only" 43 combined. On the return from westminster to germantown on md 27 I got 41.7 on trip computer. On return from frederick to germantown using i270 using 2 miles electric, it showed 39.3. Going anything over about 50mph causes it to quickly fall into the 30s.
     
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  179. Little more on heat/ac. The heat indicates 5kw on the trip computer and seems to reduce the range 25-33%. The a/c shows < 1kw but I don't have any idea how much it reduces electric range since its been a cold november in MD.

    Given the mix between electric and gas (for energi), I don't see a good way to report the real overall mpg. On a regular gas car just use one trip odometer that you reset at each fill up to compute miles/gallons. I am tracking kwh (using kill-a-watt meter). I have 415 vehicle miles, about 1/3 tank of gas used (don't expect to fill it until beginning of next year), and 89kwh so far. The trip computer shows avg of 85mpg (it treats electric as "free"). Maybe somebody has suggestions on how to process the data :).
     
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  180. Ah, 5KW for the cabin heater, must be a resistive heater (think hair dryer) rather than a heat pump system. That's too bad
     
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  181. C-Max SEL with 1400 miles, including a 1100 mile roudtrip from Ohio to DC and back. Total MPG so far is 39 according to the display. I did get one 40 mile round trip at 48mpg but most seem to be in the 36 - 39 range
     
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  182. I drove my 2013 Fusion to Florida and back and saw no better than 38 MPG. The tank is also a PITA to fill, if you dont wait about 30 seconds after it clicks off, your MPG numbers will be off, you can add about 1/2 gallon after it clicks off if you wait.

    Last night I had to fill slowly as it kept clicking off.
     
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  183. The C-max EPA rating of 47/47/47 is grossly overexaggerated. Their Energi (plugin C-max) is rated at 44/41 when on gas only which is about what the regular c-max should be rated as well, but isn't.

    40.8MPG real world average for the C-max, 42.4MPG real world average for the Prius V on Fuelly. On the government site 'Fueleconomy', the real world average from users who submitted MPG: C-max: 39.1MPG Prius V: 43MPG.
     
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  184. I bought a hybrid Fusion about a week ago. I love the car, except that it doesn't get more than 34 MPG no matter what I do. It's fully 13 MPG under the rating! Ford better do something about it.
     
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  185. The fuel mileage is determined with one person in the vehicle and gasoline which maximizes fuel mileage. Fuel mileage, even when speeds are idea, will vary considerably with passenger load and fuel source. The variation in fuel must be eliminated if fuel efficiency is to be achieved. Alcohol must be limited to 5% in non E85 fuel and octane enhancers must be controlled.
     
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  186. Official gov fuel economy should be rated with one passenger and four standard passengers in addition to fuel source. What is now being used is a government marketing number. Time to separate government from industry marketing. All car makers would be effected in the same way.
     
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  187. I have a 2013 Fusion Hybrid and have yet to see 40 MPG in it. Its more like 36 MPG, well below the advertised 47 MPG.

    I also own a 2010 Fusion Hybrid, the article nailed it, it meets and exceeds EPA. What happened Ford? You really blew this one, and if I dont start seeing some significant changes, there will be some hardball coming your way.

    One not so very happy customer.
     
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