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Ford is now clearly worried about the mileage ratings of its new 2013 Ford C-Max Hybrid and 2013 Ford Fusion Hybrid.
Company officials said on Friday that while they complied with all EPA test requirements, a driver's individual style is critical to achieving published fuel-efficiency numbers.
Both the C-Max and Fusion hybrids give drivers a choice, the company says, between a thrifty, efficient driving style--assisted by fuel economy tips in the instrument cluster--and a more fun, performance-oriented approach (which likely delivers mileage that's far short of published ratings).
On Friday, two company officials addressed the wide discrepancies between real-world mileage delivered by the vehicles--as documented on this site and by Consumer Reports, among others--versus their 47-mpg combined EPA ratings.
Joe Hinrichs, the company's president of the Americas, told The Detroit News that Ford had followed EPA guidelines when testing the cars. (Most carmakers test the cars themselves, then submit test data to the EPA for verification.)
As the Detroit paper noted, "Essentially, the C-Max Hybrid is optimized for the EPA test" because its electric top speed of 62 mph exceeds the highest speed on the EPA's highway test, set at a remarkably low and unrealistic 60 mph.
But in light of news that the EPA will look into Ford hybrids' mileage, Hinrichs said the company is talking with the agency to "determine if changes are necessary" to the test procedures specifically for hybrid vehicles.
And there's a precedent. Several years ago, the EPA modified its "adjustment factors" to raw test data specifically for hybrids.
Those changes were made to accommodate widespread discrepancies between the combined ratings for both the Toyota Prius and Honda Civic Hybrid, which ranged above 50 mpg, versus real-world mileage closer to the high 30s or low 40s as reported by owners.
Raj Nair, Ford's group vice president for global product development, expanded on the thought, as reported in Green Car Congress.
“We absolutely agree with EPA that hybrids are far more variable in the test cycle compared to real-world driving conditions in conventional vehicles," he said.
It's the fun driving character of the new hybrids that causes the problem, he suggested.
"We could have detuned the vehicles to maximize fuel economy like some of our competitors have done," he said, "but it would have been at the expense of a fun driving experience."
In other words, it appears that many of the characteristics that Ford designed into the C-Max Hybrid to make it a viable and appealing alternative to the Prius family are the same ones that seem to make it extremely hard to match its mileage ratings.
What do you think? Is it better to have a hybrid car that requires extreme focus on driving style to achieve its ratings, but also offers fun, sporty performance at the cost of fuel economy?
Or is the Prius approach--cars widely viewed as less fun to drive but more reliable in delivering real-world economy close to their ratings--better?
Leave us your thoughts in the Comments below.
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Have an opinion?
The idea that real world driving is above 62 mph causes the discrepancy does not ring true. The Prius engages the ICE at speeds over something like 25 mph and yet "real world" mpg is still good on the Prius.
Also, what are the physics that say that hard acceleration is less fuel efficient? The energy used in acceleration is stored in the vehicle as momentum and can be regained in regen braking.
Driving in winter is different from "with HEAT ON".
Turn on your heat and your engine will fire UP. You can forgot about "PURE EV miles" in short trips.
And your so called 128 MPGe is "SLOW CITY DRIVING". My Volt can get 50 EV miles in the same slow city driving mode. That is equal to 131 MPGe in EV MODE including charging loss.
Even if I use the Heat (on comfort mode), I can still get 31 EV miles on the hwy and 36 EV miles in the city.
If you drive your Volt as it was designed for, what MPGe are you getting on electric miles and what MPG on gas miles?
I am not asking about one ideal trip. I am asking for average of all of your miles.
Volt is designed to be Electric most of the time and gas when you need it.
I drive it like I always do, sports mode and 75mph+ cruising, I get 39 EV miles. 102 MPGe. I slow down to 65mph and "normal" mode like everyone else, I get 48 miles easily. 126MPGe. In the city, I get 50EV miles.
Also, I get 40MPG in my Volt in extended mode. Since I don't use any gas in my commute. I only use it on long range driving which is almost always hwy. Nobody wants to drive long distance in "city mode"...
Oh, my Volt is designed to be a 5 star safety while your Prius is designed to be a 4 star safety. With the recent "FAILURE" in the new IIHS testing on Prius V (same frontal design, it will only mean your Prius is even worse in safety.
What is your average MPGe on electric miles and average MPG on gas miles?
Don't tell me you don't know. I am not interested in cherry-picked scenarios. I am specifically looking for the average.
My MPGe is stated clearly based on the mode that I am driving. Without that information, comparing efficiency is POINTLESS. I would hope that anybody with any scientific background would understand that principle.
I asked you a simple question about average gas and electricity efficiency. You went on and beat around the bush. What is there to hide?
I list the conditions for the data or facts to make sense. I believe those are valuable information. I don't "beat around the bush" like you with your fact or Toyota.
So, what do you do? Working for Toyota marketing?
BTW, I don't work for Toyota. I am neither in automotive or marketing field.
You can do the math yourself, can't you?
Well, from your post, it explains that you aren't exactly "technical".
Without knowing the number of miles driven on gas, you can't calculate MPG. I doubt you drove 9,836 miles only with 77 gallons of gas. If you get EPA rating, 77 gallon would go 2,849 miles.
As for your electricity consumption, does it include charging loss? That figure looks like 2013 Volt EPA range without charging loss.
173 kWh x 1.15 (charging loss) / 754 electric miles = 0.2638 kWh/mi (264 Wh/mi)
1,107 gas miles / 20 gallons = 55.35 MPG
http://priuschat.com/attachments/image-1-gif.44985/
Drive your boring box like a turtle, you shall get great efficiency. No point to argue with you on your driving styles...
That's better than a hit in EV range and end up using gas toward the end of the trip when you no longer need heat. Recharging the battery used by the electric heater would take hours also.
Cordless battery powered electric heater is a bad idea. Heavy, takes a long time to charge, inefficient and a waste of precious battery recharge cycles.
Both of my coworkers with PIP have verified that on their daily commute of 3 miles and 11 miles each.
Using the engine in short trip like that is EXACTLY the reason why it isn't efficient. Even you have stated that multiple times in your own comments.
Carrying a "cordless battery powered electric heater" is still more efficient than carrying an Engine and use it as heater.
If you think engine is an efficient heater, then I got nothing more to explain to you. You need to relearn your Physics 101.
What's happenning is, battery boosting gas MPG while gas providing heat into cabin. Gas engine also charges battery if there is any excess. In another word, synergy at work. Gas has energy density magnitude higher than battery and cost and weight much less.
I don't think there is common sense 101 course offered in any college.
You sound more and more like a flip flopper to me just to show how biased you are toward ICE/Hybrid and Toyota...
To provide heat with battery in that rare condition, you need a big, expensive and heavy battery. Doing so would decrease overall efficiency in normal typical conditions.
Plugin hybrids have two fuels so it is best to use both in extreme atypical condition. That is just common sense.
That is why average efficiency is important. You take account of all conditions and weight/prioritize them accordingly. Raising the average value in real world conditions is the bottom line.
Don't pretend Volt doesn't use gas for heat. It fires up gas engine to warm up the battery, when very cold. Perhaps at different temp threshold.
Like I said, a transportation box. Good for you.
Like I said. Feel free to drive your PIP. For that price and your type of driving, a regular Prius would have been a better deal since you care about long range MPG so much. I would sacrifice that little improvement for lower performance, worse handling/braking and 1 star in safety. But then again, your definition of "fun" is wacky so suit yourself...
Don't get me started on how your Prius Plugin "game" the EPA MPGe test too...
If you are getting the so called 11 miles electric in your Prius Plugin in the winter, then you are either lying or "NOT telling the truth" since you don't use heat in the winter and drive below 62mph...
If you drive 160 miles daily in your commute, then a very small part that 160 miles is electric. Why bother with plugins at all? Just get a regular Prius. It would makes far more sense.
What doesn't make sense is your statment that you 58 days get you over 2,600 miles. That is 44 miles per day. Even if you don't drive all the time, then @ 160 miles per commute, then you are talking about 17 days of commute. So, either way, a regular Prius would make sense.
If saving gas and NOT using heat is what you care about, then why bother with all the extra options on the PIP when you can make more sense with a base Prius.
Plus, EPA cycles are less than 11 miles in total distance...
I have had a Fusion hybrid for three weeks now. I have almost 2000 miles on it, so I would expect that it should be basically broken in. I drive mostly between 50 and 60 mph. I don't accelerate tremendously fast. And I get very consistently 33-34 mpg. Sure, it's been a little bit cold for part of that, but most of the rest of what you've said doesn't apply. While I really like the car otherwise, the fuel economy is very disappointing. I'd like to see someone demonstrate how this car can be driven for anything like 47 mpg.
This is my first Ford, and if nothing is done by the company to deal with the problem as a whole, I imagine it will be my last.
1) ambient air temperature is a comfortable 70
2) People drive below 62mph
3) Land is perfectly flat
4) All electric and AC is off
5) Hypermiling techniques are used
6) You've owned the car for a while.
Doesn't seem realistic to me at all. Can't automakers downgrade the sticker numbers (i.e. claim of 42 instead of 47) knowing the EPA test is off. Why didn't Ford do that?
Ever spent a day at a drag strip? A gas car that gets 25 MPGs will be in the teens or tens after a few 1/4 mile runs. On a hybrid the stored energy is depleted quickly the more you hammer it. It's common sense. Energy isn't free under any conditions.
You wrote:"The energy used in acceleration is stored in the vehicle as momentum and can be regained in regen braking"
Isn't that too simple?
That is true ONLY if you are assuming that your power source are operating at the same efficiency for two complete different power/load. A faster acceleration might NOT require more energy, but it sure requires more power. More power cause the engine to operate at a different power/load curve which can decrease efficiency significantly. Even for electric motors, that is true as well.
The same applies to "regen" brakes. The faster you brake, the less likely you will be recovering that energy...
We'll see what sort of numbers the EPA comes up with after retesting.
But what I really don't understand is Ford's response to this. This is quickly turning into a PR nightmare and further angering drivers like myself who are nowhere close. Easy solution: acknowledge that the cars are optimized for the EPA test, but real world conditions will never allow drivers to get close to this. Downgrade the estimates, pay the 6000 or so drivers who have already bought the car like Kia and Hyundai and move on. Ford's solution so far: critique the data and the people who actually buy the cars! Making a bad situation worse Ford.
http://fordcmaxhybridforum.com/index.php?/topic/288-c-max-fuel-mileage-what-are-you-getting/page-2?
What about fueleconomy.gov where the average is 39.7 or fuelly.com where it is the same? While individual cases do vary, the aggregate data that's available suggests the Cmax is short. Also, many other cars beat their claims, why not Ford? See: http://news.consumerreports.org/cars/2012/02/reality-check-will-your-car-actually-achieve-the-advertised-40-mpg.html
On fuelecon there is a 2013 Prius (the only one) that is only in the 30s. http://www.fueleconomy.gov/feg/Find.do?action=yourMpgVehicle&id=33331 Most of the C-Maxs only have 400-600 miles on them so far. I'm not reading too much into either so far.
Nor is the Prius v meeting 2012 meeting it's EPA......contrary to your statement that Prius owners have no problem beating the EPA figures.
http://www.fueleconomy.gov/feg/Find.do?action=yourMpgVehicle&id=31836
Several are in the 30s also. So yes, Toyota DOES have a similar problem with the v. The v is the biggest and heaviest Prius.......take that into consideration.
Here's the problem- there is much more info about the Cmax with 40 owners reporting data to fueleconomy.gov. The average is 39.7. Much more data= much closer to normal. Look at the Prius from 2012 on fuelecon and see that it is 51mpg, slightly above EPA estimate. And see, as noted above: http://news.consumerreports.org/cars/2012/02/reality-check-will-your-car-actually-achieve-the-advertised-40-mpg.html
Also, I now have 3000 miles so that can't be the issue. Many others are now at this stage.
Maybe it is different than Toyota's approach, but with a C-Max it's a matter of choice, at least you HAVE a choice in how you use it: space, power and handling.
None of your friends have a problem? How about these people?
http://priuschat.com/threads/not-getting-50-mpg-on-new-prius.87924/
fluctuate's more than any other car I have ever owned.
In the summer MPG will be in the low to mid 50's, in the winter mid 40's or so.
These are temps in the 40's or so during the winter.
When its real cold you can probably expect 35 mpg to be the norm.
Cold is a true killer for the Prius MPG.
al"
Read more: http://priuschat.com/threads/not-getting-50-mpg-on-new-prius.87924/#ixzz2FM6gbF9Z
Drive it like what C-Max is capable or "designed" to be, then live with your 40MPG (which is still good). You don't want to drive like Prius drivers anyway....
Maybe Ford should update their software to include an "Eco" mode to limit the "fun" when driving for all out economy.
I'd really like to see someone who is getting the high MPG switch vehicles with one getting low MPGs, let them drive it for a week and see what would happen. That would tell me a lot.
If you read over the EPA testing procedures, I don't think they simulate real world driving for most people.
Also, we Americans almost always choose the "fast and fun" mode of operation when given a choice.
I, too, think that the EPA highway test being limited to 60 MPH is insane and accounts for some of the discrepancy between the EPA rating and the CR rating. However, this discrepancy would be for highway driving only, but the larger discrepancy was with city driving where the Ford's 62 MPH EV limit would have no effect.
For my 2013 Fusion I am seeing an average of mid 30s for city driving, about half of which is in EV mode. Without resorting to some exotic hyper-miling techniques I couldn't do any better. Although I see 47 MPG sometimes on short trips, getting this regularly under a wide range of conditions is not realistic.
I stand by my criticism of the EPA test. Neither of these tests mimic real-world highway driving. When was the last time you limited Interstate top speed to 60 MPH?
http://www.fueleconomy.gov/feg/how_tested.shtml
You can see specific drive cycles. The first two tests are original; three additional, tougher tests were added in 2008. The second highway test goes to 80 mph, but averages 48 mph.
All vehicles are run in controlled laboratory conditions. Skilled technicians "drive" the cars on a dyno. These standardized tests are repeatable and vehicles can be tested at another lab with similar results (i.e., EPA audit or competitive testing).
There is absolutely no evidence whatsoever that Ford cheated on EPA testing, but that's what was implied based on CR's earlier critique; their latest article is finally much more conciliatory.
Stopping at red light and stop signs significantly lower the average speed.
EPA test has profile that shows the speed vs.time...
No EPA test is longer than 11 miles.
There are only 2 cold start testing and ONLY 1 cold temperature testing at 20 deg F where the results get averaged with other cycles. Even in the "cold cycle", the top speed is below 56mph and distance is less than 11 miles. Average speed is lower than 25 mph.
http://www.fueleconomy.gov/feg/fe_test_schedules.shtml
In its description, you can see how SLOW the acceleration is:
City: 3.3mph/s. 0-56mph(max speed of city cycle) of 17 sec.
Hwy: 3.2mph/s. 0-60mph of 18.7 seconds.
High Speed: 8.46mph/s. 0-80mph of 9.45 second (0-60 of 7 seconds)
A/C: 5.1mph/s. 0-54.8mph of 10.74 seconds.
Cold: 3.3mph/s. 0-56mph(max speed of city cycle) of 17 sec.
Also, look at each cycle's average speed:
21.2 mph
48.3 mph
48.4 mph
21.2 mph
21.2 mph
Total distance are:
11 mi.
10.3 mi.
8 mi.
3.6 mi.
11 mi.
This is partially EPA's lame test fault. Ford just designed a car that is good at "gaming" the EPA numbers...(No different from Prius Plugin and Accord Plugin that games the MPGe number in EPA tests).
I drive 60 miles each way to work, mostly flat in TX so it's warm, using Eco-Cruise set at 65 and I get about 36 MPG. So the car is controlling the accelerator and I steer. I do this at 4AM and mid afternoon so little passing no starts/stops/accelerating/etc. just driving.
I currently have 1,900 miles on my 2013 Fusion Hybrid and my experience is similar to BrcD‘s. I knew when buying my Ford that I would never average 47 mpg. I wasn’t going to become a Prius-like driver. I currently have a lifetime average of 36 mpg.
I also have the Goodyear tires, which from reports from Fusion forums, seems to lower MPG by about 2. I wouldn’t even think of giving up my 18” luxury wheels to get that mileage back. They make a great looking car look even better. Ford does, however, need to make consumers aware of this if it is proven true.
As Rich said, the second CR report clarifies most issues. I don’t hold anything against Ford for designing their hybrid system to ace the EPA.
No car is perfect, but what Ford has done with the Fusion Hybrid satisfies my desires for a vehicle more than any other made. If I spent $55K+ on a car, I could find another that did, but I would then feel guilty for spending too much.
Some Fusion drivers are reporting that their car significantly slows up when coasting, which shouldn’t normally occur. The hybrid is equipped with a Grade Assist button on the stick shift, and I think some may be driving with this accidentally engaged at times.
It doesn't matter how the test conditions are set, some automakers will figure out ways to game it. Since consumers actually care about few MPG these days or make decision on 2-3 MPG difference, then it creates incentives for car makers to game it.
Seems to me that Ford should drop a new Fusion off at my house and let me see if I can't get at least 50 mpg. :-)
http://www.insideline.com/ford/fusion-hybrid/2010/2010-ford-fusion-hybrid-long-term-road-test.html
It is looking REALLY BAD that the average driver is getting 35 MPG from real world driving on the Ford C-Max Hybrid when the average Prius driver is getting 45-50 MPG in real world driving.
If I bought the C-Max expecting 47 MPG, I am going to be hopping angry.
Most "die hard" Prius Plugin owners are still happy with it since they are getting very little Electric miles with heat on or high speed. But they manage to "duplicate" the short EPA test cycles in real life by being really slow/gentle with their PIP...
I have always said that regular Prius is a great buy especially comparing to the Prius Plugins...
I think the reasons are simple. Aerodynamic is not as good as Prius. Gas engine displacement is larger. The lack of EGR would take higher pumping loss, beyond the Atkinson cycle limit.
My PiP is beating EPA estimates in the 2 winter months in NY (warmer than usual) so far. I am averaging 128 MPGe on electric miles and 55 MPG on gas miles. I use EV for those short frequent around town trips and HV mode (gasoline) on the highway longer trips. I can't wait for those warmer months.
I traveled the mostly flat 168 miles across the breadth of Illinois from Terra Haute, IN to St. Louis, MO. There was no significant wind and the road was dry. I put the 2013 Fusion into ECO cruise mode and set the cruise control at 65 MPH. I did not manually interfere with the throttle and the engine was fully warmed up. Once I got to speed, I reset the MPG counter.
When I arrived in St. Louis the MPG counter read 35.0 MPG.
Yesterday, went on trip 55 Miles each way, 40% with Eco-Cruise set at 65 (highway), 60% with Eco-Cruise set at between 50-55 (two-Lane) and got about 40 MPG. The cruise was set at the speed limit all the time.
I can prove it... http://fusionhybridmpg.blogspot.com/
Have an opinion?Join the conversation!