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2012 Fisker Karma: 20 MPG On Gasoline, 32-Mi Electric Range

 
11,376 views Oct 18, 2011
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Prince Albert of Monaco and Henrik Fisker drive Fisker Karma on Monaco Grand Prix circuit, May 2011

Prince Albert of Monaco and Henrik Fisker drive Fisker Karma on Monaco Grand Prix circuit, May 2011

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It's been a long and painful year for Fisker Automotive, with deliveries of its 2012 Karma extended-range electric sport sedan repeatedly delayed from the original target of May.

Now, with certification earlier this week from the Environmental Protection Agency that the car complies with emissions standards, Fisker can legally start to deliver its first 39 production cars, which landed at the Port of Newark last weekend.

That means two plug-in "series hybrids," or extended-range electric cars, will be on sale--a type of vehicle not sold in volume in the States for 90 years.


Window sticker: 20 mpg on gasoline

With EPA certification, all Fisker Karmas will now have a window sticker affixed, showing the car's efficiency both on electric power (52 MPGe) and in range-sustaining mode when its gasoline engine runs to generate the electricity that powers the car's motors (20 mpg).

The Fisker Karma is powered by a pair of 150-kilowatt (201-horsepower) electric motors driving the rear wheels, and the range extender that powers its generator is a 260-hp 2.0-liter turbocharged four (purchased from General Motors).

Fisker said in a press release late today that its window sticker will show an EPA rating of 52 MPGe running on electricity.

Roger Ormisher, Fisker's director of global communications, told GreenCarReports this afternoon that the fuel efficiency of the car when its range-extending gasoline engine is running--the other number on the window sticker--will be 20 mpg.

32 miles of electric range

The EPA stated that under its test procedures, the Karma's all-electric range was 32 miles.

Nonetheless, "we firmly believe that most owners will get up to 50 miles of driving range on a single charge," said co-founder and CEO Henrik Fisker, "and will use our electric-only mode most of the time they drive the car."

The comparable figures for the 2012 Chevrolet Volt--which has a less powerful single 111-kilowatt (149-hp) drive motor and an 80-hp, 1.4-liter range extender--are 94 MPGe in electric mode, and 37 mpg on gasoline, with an electric range of 35 miles.

2011 Chevrolet Volt on test in Little Rock, Arkansas, July 2011

2011 Chevrolet Volt on test in Little Rock, Arkansas, July 2011

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The "miles-per-gallon-equivalent" unit reflects how far an electric car will run on the amount of battery energy contained in 1 gallon of gasoline. The most energy-efficient electric car sold in the U.S. is the battery-electric 2012 Mitsubishi 'i' minicar, which the EPA rates at 112 MPGe.

What to compare to?

While the gas mileage in range-extending mode may prove a disappointment to some, it's not that far out of line with some of the Karma's competition. The 2012 Mercedes-Benz CLS 550, for instance, gets a combined EPA rating of 20 mpg.

The rear-wheel drive CLS 500--also a low-slung, stylish four-door sedan--has a 0-to-60-mph time of 5.1 seconds, according to Mercedes-Benz. That's more than a second quicker than the Karma's quoted time of 6.3 seconds in Sport mode, though of course the CLS can't plug in or run on battery alone.

Deliveries to dealers first

While the EPA and also the National Highway Traffic Safety Administration have signed off on the 2012 Karma, according to Fisker's Ormisher, the California Air Resources Board (CARB) has not--at least as of this morning.

First factory-built Fisker Karma live photos

First factory-built Fisker Karma live photos

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That means that the first few dozen Karmas can be delivered, as long as the dealers are located outside the Golden State. Ormisher said CARB approval was expected "a week after the EPA, so it should be happening now-ish."

All 39 of the first cars are earmarked for dealers to use as demonstrators, Ormisher told GreenCarReports this afternoon.

As for cars destined for the actual paying depositors who've been waiting patiently? They'll be on the second shipment from Finland, he said, which will arrive roughly two weeks from now.

That means that Fisker is unlikely to book actual customer sales during October, but should definitely start to do so in November.

Final development of the 2012 Fisker Karma was partially funded by $529 million in low-interest loans granted in 2009 by the U.S. Department of Energy's advanced technology vehicle manufacturing program.

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Comments (72)

  1. fb_1001015277 avatar John Briggs Posted: 10/18/2011 7:45pm PDT

    What a complete disaster.

    1)52 mpge is by far the worst EV rating. The Azure transit Connect EV gets 62 mpge for heaven sakes.

    2) And at 20 mpg on gasoline is also the worst hybrid on the market, by a small margin. There are several hybrid vehicles (including trucks) that get 21 mpg combined. But Fisker bested (err, worsted) them.

    3) And with 32 miles of electric range they would also be the worst EV range, if you exclude the plug-in Prius which is sort of different anyway.

    Dang, I had so much hope for this vehicle.

    Wonder what Bo thinks of this.
     
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  2. brodyhill avatar Brody Hill Posted: 10/18/2011 8:00pm PDT

    Great comments as always John. Keep em' coming.
     
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  3. fb_208177 avatar Doug King Posted: 10/18/2011 9:59pm PDT

    Fisker had previously claimed a 0 to 60 of 7.9 and 5.9 seconds in Stealth and Sport modes, respectively.
    (http://media.fiskerautomotive.com/global/en-us/EVerTechnology/Overview.aspx)
    Now they seem to be claiming 0 to 60 of 6.3 in Sport mode. Did they offer any explanation?
     
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  4. rwoodburn avatar steve woodburn Posted: 10/18/2011 10:06pm PDT

    500 million dollars of taxpayer money down the drain. What we get for electing community organizer as POTUS.
     
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  5. fb_1341732987 avatar Douglas Kerr Posted: 10/18/2011 11:26pm PDT

    Yeah, just think, if we put a Republican in office we can expect even MORE incentives for the oil companies. Yeah, that's what we would get from the politicians already in the pockets of big oil.
     
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  6. James Davis avatar James Davis Posted: 10/19/2011 5:21am PDT

    It is sad and pathetic that Karma is so much like GM and is trying to shove this backward technology down everyone's throat and keep us chained to the gas pumps; they will probably ask $50 to $60+ for this backward car...just like the Volt. Does Karma and GM realize that all of America, thanks to Green Car Report, now knows better?

    I agree with you, Douglas about the republicans and their big incentives to fossil fuel. The GOP owns GM and look at what GM insist on giving us.
     
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  7. jeffhre avatar Jeff Hre Posted: 10/19/2011 8:07pm PDT

    GM? Like GM? GM trying to hove this technology...James Davis,did I completely miss that last turn you made? Karma at $95,000 is made by Fisker. Volt at 39,995 is made by GM.
     
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  8. rwoodburn avatar steve woodburn Posted: 10/19/2011 9:22am PDT

    If we had a conservative in office gas prices would be below two dollars, people would have jobs, and there would be economic opportunity for all americans. Useful electric cars and solar panel are currently a liberal fantasy. Too bad re have to re learn this expensive lesson every so often.
    We have enough oil and energy in the country to be energy independent if the liberals would just let us get it.
     
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  9. fb_1001015277 avatar John Briggs Posted: 10/19/2011 9:53am PDT

    Hmmm, thought you were going for satire, but perhaps you are serious.
     
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  10. fb_671144013 avatar Jonathan Baker Posted: 10/19/2011 10:26am PDT

    Are you actually that gullible? What would be this magic formula for below $2 gas. More drilling? Given world demand, there are not enough drill-ready fields in the world reach that price let alone fields we control. Not that that matters because oil drilled domestically all goes on the world-wide open market anyhow. Something your conservative heroes sure wouldn't change.

    And to claim we'd have "economic opportunity for all Americans" after massive deregulation and a top-end tax cut by the most conservative US administration in modern history, directly led to the most massive economic meltdown since the depression? Back away from the Fox News my friend. You've become way to disassociated from reality.
     
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  11. rwoodburn avatar steve woodburn Posted: 10/19/2011 4:00pm PDT

    Jonathan, you are calling me gullible and the people you support just wasted 500 million dollars of tax payor dollars on a dual coal powered car/gas powered car that costs around 100K dollars that gets worse gas mileage than my MB e55 amg. Furthermore, your liberal friends wasted another 500 million dollars of taxpayer money on Solyndra(sp) a solar company that is now bankrupt. I am sure the cronies walked away with pretty penny while the tax payers again foot the bill. In fact, more drilling is the answer to cheaper gas. And yes, the mere threat of the mighty USA getting serious about drilling would immediately bring world prices down. This is no fantasy land of solar, wind, and coal powered cars in which you liberals live.
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  12. rwoodburn avatar steve woodburn Posted: 10/19/2011 4:03pm PDT

    You could not be more wrong about lack of regs causing the melt down. Is was liberal policies from frank dodd that led banks to loan to people who could not afford them. I don't have time to teach you this but you can certainly try to learn the truth but googling freddie mac and fannie mae. Liberal policies have put a big hurt on the US. The pain is almost over though - thank god. It is/was carter all over again.
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  13. Chris O avatar Chris O Posted: 10/19/2011 3:19am PDT

    This again proves that the whole range extender concept doesn't really work. The cars get too heavy and as a result get poor range in EV mode and poor MPG in extended range mode. Also the cars get too complex and therefore too expensive. Fisker needs to make a choice: either go all ICE or go all EV. The current neither fish nor fowl approach just means that Tesla will kick their ass.
     
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  14. fb_1001015277 avatar John Briggs Posted: 10/19/2011 4:24am PDT

    Seems a little harsh to put all E-REVs in the same bucket due to Fisker's poor execution. But I am worried that you are right.

    Let's look at the Volt versus LEAF comparison.

    The Volt gets 94 mpge and the LEAF gets 99 mpge. So the Volt is worse, but only by 5%.

    The Volt gets 37 mpg on gasoline which is not Prius 50 mpg quality, but not much is. The Ford Fusion hybrid gets 39 mpg which is compariable to the Volts 37, but admittedly, the Fusion is a slightly larger car.
     
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  15. jeffhre avatar Jeff Hre Posted: 10/19/2011 6:13am PDT

    Seems a little harsh to put all E-REVs in the same bucket due to Fisker's poor execution. But I am worried that you are right.

    John, the criticisms have also been totally out of context. The comparisons are with a 6 Series or a V8 Vantage, not a Prius or a Leaf, or even a Hybrid Fusion. In that context, the Karma is an incremental advance.
     
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  16. fb_1001015277 avatar John Briggs Posted: 10/19/2011 10:22am PDT

    I hear what you are saying. You want to put the Karma in a category of of super-sports car and have it judged against those incredible inefficient machines. But there doesn't seem to be any reason to set the bar that low.

    Let's look at what Tesla has achieve against their benchmark, the Lotus Elise.

    Elise 4.3 gallon/100miles
    Tesla 30.5 KWH/100miles
    7.09KWH is needed to displace 1 gallon of gasoline

    V8 Vantange 6.7gallon/100miles
    Karma 64.8KWH/100 miles
    9.67KWH is needed to displace 1 gallon of gasoline
    or 36% worse than the Tesla/Elise comparison

    BMW 650i 5.6gallon/100miles
    Karma 64.8KWH/100 miles
    11.57KWH is needed to displace 1 gallon of gasoline
    or 63% worse than the Tesla/Elise comparison
     
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  17. fb_1001015277 avatar John Briggs Posted: 10/19/2011 10:23am PDT

    For the Karma to be on par with the Tesla/Elise comparison, it would need to get 87 mpge not 52 mpge.
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  18. Chris O avatar Chris O Posted: 10/19/2011 11:50am PDT

    Nice math exercise! Really puts things in perspective. At 64.8KWH/100 miles the Karma is an electricity hog to the point that I can hardly believe the numbers. What went wrong here?
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  19. jeffhre avatar Jeff Hre Posted: 10/19/2011 6:14pm PDT

    In California we use used up 31.087 billion KWh of NG, and 7.266 billion KWh of electricity to extract and refine gasoline in 2009. At the same time we burned 15 billion gallons of gasoline. Water transport is the largest industrial consumer of electricity and petroleum refining is the second largest. Coincidentally a tremendous amount of water is used to refine gasoline. We use about 1% coal to supply the grid. At 15 to 16 miles per gallon will my rich neighbors in Hollywood and Silicon Valley, driving their 650i's and V8 vantages ever be on a par with a Karma driver with a 10, 20, 40 or more mile daily commute to studio or Tech jobs? Is comparing a luxury roadship fighter to the mission of a Tesla Roadster an apples and oranges exercise.
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  20. MichaelThwaite avatar Michael Thwaite Posted: 10/19/2011 4:42am PDT

    This is going to be a headache for EV enthusiasts everywhere. "I hear that new electric car gets worst gas milage than my truck."

    They pursued the 'ideal' EV with range extender regardless of the inevitable results. GM (I can't believe I'm saying this) has a better EV with range extender because they focused on reality rather than fantasy.

    So here we are; an indefensible position; an 'EV' that pollutes more and uses more foreign oil than a truck, let alone a Prius.

    As Chris O said; "Tesla will kick their ass." however, I think that WE should be kicking their ass for every Clarksonian quip that will inevitably come our way.

    Strap on the flak jackets folks.
     
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  21. fb_1001015277 avatar John Briggs Posted: 10/19/2011 6:07am PDT

    Oh dear God. They are going to have this thing on Top Gear aren't they. sigh.
     
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  22. Chris O avatar Chris O Posted: 10/19/2011 11:37am PDT

    Yep, Top Gear will have a field day with this, and so will conservative news outlets like Fox News who for some reason think it's a better idea to send huge sums of money to the Middle East, Russia and Venezuela than to drive electric:

    http://www.foxnews.com/leisure/2011/10/18/fisker-karma-fuel-economy-flop/
     
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  23. jeffhre avatar Jeff Hre Posted: 10/19/2011 6:55pm PDT

    Michael, what truck are you comparing it to. When I sold my Tundra, it was getting 15 mpg and had no electric miles available.
     
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  24. James Davis avatar James Davis Posted: 10/19/2011 5:28am PDT

    "This again proves that the whole range extender concept doesn't really work." ...CORRECT" What am I talking about? Your whole comment is "CORRECT"!

    The only range extender I've seen that really works is the Range Extended Windows on the BMW i3 and i8.
     
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  25. fb_100002494343393 avatar Jason Hendler Posted: 10/19/2011 7:10am PDT

    You are missing the point of the range extended concept. These vehicles are for those people with commutes of less than 50 miles (in spite of the EPA figure, which was low for the Volt as well), who also occasionally drive beyond that range. Drivers will tend to keep this vehicle within its EV range, greatly reducing their fuel consumption. So what if the mpge figure is low, as long as you are running off renewable electricity, as some Volt drivers are. That's the price for driving the most gorgeous car on the market today.
     
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  26. fb_1001015277 avatar John Briggs Posted: 10/19/2011 7:37am PDT

    You are missing the point. One of the key motivations for EV for many people is to drive efficiently, whether that is electrical or fuel efficiency does not matter. The Fisker Karma is very inefficient for electricity usage and fuel usage.

    OK, I will just go ahead and say it. The Fisker Karma is the new Hummer.
     
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  27. fb_671144013 avatar Jonathan Baker Posted: 10/19/2011 10:39am PDT

    Agreed. Plug-in hybrids make sense for small commutes. If you drive little more than 32 miles a day, this could work for you. Though why you would need such a large and lavish car for such a small commute is worth considering because the benefits of cars in the Fisker's segment are much more apparent on long drives rather than short ones.
     
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  28. jeffhre avatar Jeff Hre Posted: 10/21/2011 6:39pm PDT

    Why would anyone need a Maserati Quatroporte, Maserati Kubang, Bentley Azure, Bentley Mulsanne, Bentley
    Continental Flying Spur, Maserati GranTurismo, McLaren
    MP4-12C, Bugatti Veyron, Ferrari 458 Italia, Ferrari
    599 GTB Fiorano, Mercedes-Benz S600, Mercedes-Benz
    SLS AMG, ferrari California, SpykerC 8 Aileron, Cadillac Escalade ESV, Lamborghini Gallardo, BMW ALPINA B7, Porsche Panamera or Rolls-Royce Phantom Coupe etc, etc?

    I don't know. But I do know Fisker is now offering you a no gas 30 to 45 mile commute, more efficient option.
     
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  29. jeffhre avatar Jeff Hre Posted: 10/19/2011 6:18pm PDT

    Absolutely, once the Hummer travels 30 to 45 miles on electricity and gains a 60% gas mileage boost from 12 mpg to 20 mpg.
     
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  30. CDspeed avatar CDspeed . Posted: 10/19/2011 8:34am PDT

    I think the point is Fisker originally claimed it would get 100 mpg and go 50 miles on electricity so there is a little disappointment there. But I'm sure it will still sell like crazy based on it's looks and technology.
     
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  31. robok2 avatar robok2 Posted: 10/19/2011 7:27am PDT

    @Michael, with all due respect, in what world is your claim true?
    "an 'EV' that pollutes more and uses more foreign oil than a truck, let alone a Prius."
    Let's see, the same mileage as the hybrid trucks, but also the capability to drive roughly 35 miles with no emissions whatsoever. Even if driven only 20% in EV mode, that's still clearly lower emissions, right? Add in the fact that most drivers will drive it mostly in EV range and it's a claim that clearly rings false.
    As for this one vehicle "proving" that EREVs are a joke, you've got to be kidding. Especially those who think Tesla will lead the way. In what world are $60k-$80k EVs going to sell better than $40k EREVs with far more range?
    James, the Volt isn't $50-60k & you know it.
     
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  32. fb_1001015277 avatar John Briggs Posted: 10/19/2011 8:23am PDT

    Sometimes people think electricity is magical, cheap, and clean, well not necessarily.

    Electricity can be cheap and dirty, think coal at 4cent/KWH. But if you are in a LEAF, the CO2 impact is about the same as gasoline. But in the Karma, you might produce less CO2 by buying something else, like a 911.

    Electricity can be clean and expensive, think solar at 30cent/KWH. In this case the cost savings of the EV are wrecked by the Karma, but at least it is clean. Make room on your roof for a 6KW array just to power one car, never mind your house or your other car.
     
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  33. CDspeed avatar CDspeed . Posted: 10/19/2011 8:26am PDT

    I'm currently getting 22mpg city in my BMW and I have a twin-turbo V8 with 400hp. I'm disappointed with Fisker, I was once interested in the Karma but it didn't come close to the original 100mpg claim. Neither the Karma or Volt can really do anything better then any other car that is currently available. I think the Leaf is the only car currently available that is bringing us real change. The Karma will not be the revolution Mr.Fisker promised, it's just another toy made in the attempt to keep us hooked on oil.
     
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  34. evilattorney avatar Evil Attorney Posted: 10/19/2011 9:11am PDT

    Umm, the Volt can do MUCH better than any other car out there except for a Leaf or other pure EV. I have had my Volt since January, driven about 7,500 miles and only used about 16 gallons of gas (that's around 470 mpg). If your daily commute is under 30 miles, you could easily get similar numbers with the Karma. If you don't factor typical usage/driving patterns into the equation, you are missing the point.
     
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  35. fb_1341732987 avatar Douglas Kerr Posted: 10/19/2011 9:29am PDT

    Using electricity is relative. If there is any such thing as an electric hog, this Karma is it. In California, your electric bill will very nearly equate with your gasoline bill. With the Karma, you do get the satisfaction of using electricity, but your overall bill won't be much cheaper than using gasoline. Really, no matter which way you look at it, the Karma is a hog.
     
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  36. evilattorney avatar Evil Attorney Posted: 10/19/2011 10:18am PDT

    I'm driving at about 31kwh/100 miles in my Volt. At $.11/kwh, that's about $3.41/100 miles. Let's say the Karma is double that at $6.82/100 miles. Compare that to a 50mpg Prius which would use 2 gallons of gas for 100 miles at $3.50/gallon, that's $7/100 miles. So, for 78% of Americans it's still cheaper to drive than a Prius, but you are driving a fun, slick, powerful, luxury car instead. Compare the Karma to a more comparable luxury hybrid and you come out way ahead.

    And if the CO2 savings are half of the Volt's, that's still about 200 lbs of CO2 emissions saved monthly (OnStar says mine was 440 lbs for last month).
     
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  37. fb_1001015277 avatar John Briggs Posted: 10/19/2011 11:42am PDT

    Well electricity in CA is more like $0.20/kwh making the Volt $6.20/100 miles or roughly the same as the $7/100 miles you calculated for the Prius.

    As for the Karma, the price of fuel would be double the Prius.

    And then there is the fact that the Karma is 4X the price of the base model Prius.

    But sure the Karma is an awesome car, but if you are going to pollute and spend money like that, just get a DB9.
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  38. evilattorney avatar Evil Attorney Posted: 10/19/2011 12:11pm PDT

    With LADWP's time of use service, high peak is .20 but low peak is .11. Also there is a .025 ev rate discount on top of that. So, your argument is a bit of straw man.
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  39. fb_1001015277 avatar John Briggs Posted: 10/19/2011 9:30am PDT

    But the Karma is going to use TWICE the electricity as the Volt uses to do the same job.
     
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  40. jeffhre avatar Jeff Hre Posted: 10/19/2011 6:50pm PDT

    And every luxury car driver will suddenly throw up their highly manicured hands in exasperation and purchase Volt?
     
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  41. CDspeed avatar CDspeed . Posted: 10/19/2011 10:05am PDT

    I'm sorry I think I wrote that sentence in the heat of the moment. I'm just a little miffed after all that hype that the Karma turned out to be less efficient then the Volt.
     
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  42. fb_1001015277 avatar John Briggs Posted: 10/19/2011 8:27am PDT

    So if Leonardo Dicaprio shows up at a red carpet event in a Karma should he be criticized and told to show up in his Prius?
     
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  43. fb_1341732987 avatar Douglas Kerr Posted: 10/19/2011 9:31am PDT

    Putting a battery pack in a Hummer still makes it a Hummer. Just because a vehicle uses electricity, doesn't give it a pass. The goal should be efficiency, and the Karma doesn't appear to be very efficient.
     
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  44. evilattorney avatar Evil Attorney Posted: 10/19/2011 10:21am PDT

    The Karma is WAY more efficient than a comparable luxury car. On the equivalent energy in 1 gallon of gas, it can drive at least 52 miles. Name one luxury car that can even come close to that on gas.
     
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  45. fb_1001015277 avatar John Briggs Posted: 10/19/2011 11:45am PDT

    There is a reason that it only gets 20 mpg, it is inefficient. Don't try to confuse it by talking in mpge. Karma has the worst mpge of any electric car including a transit connect van.
     
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  46. jeffhre avatar Jeff Hre Posted: 10/19/2011 6:52pm PDT

    A Karma is not very efficient. Unless it's compared to every luxury car on the road, or a Hummer.
     
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  47. CDspeed avatar CDspeed . Posted: 10/19/2011 10:08am PDT

    Or should he have waited and got the Tesla Model S?
     
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  48. evilattorney avatar Evil Attorney Posted: 10/19/2011 9:28am PDT

    Like with the Volt, I think everyone is focusing on the wrong numbers. The most important question is will the battery last long enough to hit the 40 mile range sweet spot, since 78% of Americans commute less than 40 miles to/from work. Based on my experiences with my Volt and the EPA numbers, I would say yes, moderate driving will get you to the 40 mile number (obviously this needs testing).

    I regularly get 40+ miles of charge from my Volt and since January, driven about 7,500 miles using about 16 gallons of gas (that's around 470 mpg). 78% of Americans can get similar numbers with the Volt and, most likely, with the Karma.
     
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  49. fb_1001015277 avatar John Briggs Posted: 10/19/2011 9:50am PDT

    I just love the fact that you have no idea how much electricity you are using in the Volt and act like it is as free and inconsequential as air. Electrons simply grows on trees and free to anyone to collect and place in their vehicle without effort or consequence.

    Yes, if your absolute and only concern is displacing OIL from foreign governments, the Karma might have some value. But is you have any other concerns, like, money, pollution, CO2, than the Karma has no value.
     
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  50. evilattorney avatar Evil Attorney Posted: 10/19/2011 10:30am PDT

    See my other post where I give actual numbers. By my estimations, the Karma will be cheaper to drive on electricity than a standard Prius and will still pollute less. Look, if a range extended truck is made, should we scoff at it if it's numbers aren't as good as the Volt or Leaf?
     
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  51. fb_1001015277 avatar John Briggs Posted: 10/19/2011 11:46am PDT

    They have made an electric truck, and it is more efficient than the Karma.
     
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  52. evilattorney avatar Evil Attorney Posted: 10/19/2011 12:48pm PDT

    The efficiency is similar. I would classify the Transit Connect as a small van. It gets 62 MPGe because it is relatively light for a van that size (about 500 lbs lighter than the ICE version) at 3950 lbs. The Karma is 4300 lbs and is nearly the same as a Jaguar XFR, which in my opinion is one of the closest ICE substitutes at this time (it gets 15 mpg). The extra luxury features add weight which reduces efficiency. There is no way around that. I can think of no ICE luxury car that is light and therefore gets any MPG close to a Prius. The Model S weighs closer to the Connect at about 3,800 lbs, so we'll see how the EPA rates it, but my guess is it will get only a slightly higher rating than the Karma and Connect, maybe high 60's MPGe.
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  53. fb_1001015277 avatar John Briggs Posted: 10/19/2011 12:57pm PDT

    I am sorry but the difference between 3950 and 4300 can not be the determining factor. It is all down to the engineering. Tesla, Chevy, and the LEAF all worked to both keep the weight and drag down. Fisker appears not to have bothered.
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  54. evilattorney avatar Evil Attorney Posted: 10/20/2011 1:55pm PDT

    Oops, my bad. The Karma is 5,300 lbs. That alone does explain the poor MPGe.
    http://www.plugincars.com/heavyweight-fisker-karma-gets-20-mpg-gas-108899.html?utm_source=feedburner&utm_medium=feed&utm_campaign=Feed%3A+PluginCars+%28PluginCars.com+RSS+Feed%29
     
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  55. jeffhre avatar Jeff Hre Posted: 10/19/2011 7:01pm PDT

    You're right, I expect Karma buyers will have concerns about money, pollution, CO2...well, maybe not so much the first one.
     
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  56. fb_100002441833924 avatar George Parrott Posted: 10/19/2011 11:07am PDT

    I am also shocked and disappointed in the range and mileage details for the Karma; I had been impressed with the original claims and even begun my savings program to put one in our garage in a couple of years. Now, maybe the Converg? The Karma is a huge "miss" in terms of promise and execution.
     
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  57. robok2 avatar robok2 Posted: 10/19/2011 11:12am PDT

    Sorry, still can't use reply... @John B, correct, thanks. I meant to add "additional" emissions but hit my 750 character limit and didn't make the change.
    The comparisons between a Prius and LEAF and the Fisker are hilarious. Audi, BMW and Mercedes buyers may be interested but comparing a Prius to a Karma? Uh, does the better styling mean nothing? The much better powertrain acceleration? The better interior? I mean, using the same logic, why would anyone ever buy a luxury car when a Prius is more efficient.
    There will be different EVs for different customers, deal with it already. This isn't targeted at all EV fans and isn't for me, either, but I welcome another entry anyway.
    Not every EV/PHEV needs to be a Prius or LEAF. Styling counts.
     
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  58. fb_1001015277 avatar John Briggs Posted: 10/19/2011 11:48am PDT

    You are kind of implying that high style and inefficiency must go hand-in-hand. This is not the case and I expect the Tesla Model S will prove this is the case much as Tesla did with the roadster.

    Fisker has simply failed, deal with it already.
     
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  59. pkpk avatar Pete Kaufmann Posted: 10/28/2011 3:43pm PDT

    You obviously never drove the roadster. it's fit and finish was substandard to it's price. Furthermore it's ride was uninspiring and dull. Why do you think they stopped making it? The Karma has a much better feel to it, and please stop comparing it to the leaf of the volt. Have you driven one?
     
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  60. robok2 avatar robok2 Posted: 10/19/2011 11:19am PDT

    @Douglas K., "With the Karma, you do get the satisfaction of using electricity, but your overall bill won't be much cheaper than using gasoline. Really, no matter which way you look at it, the Karma is a hog."
    Really, I'd love to see some numbers backing that claim. I've done similar simulations several times at different mileage levels, different percentage of driving in electric mode, etc. and let's just say I'm puzzled at your claim. Even at peak electricity rates, it'd still be cheaper, so using off-peak charging only increases the savings. And yes, that's using California's electricity costs.
    In the end, if the car in ICE mode gets 20 MPG but you don't use gas 80% of the time, mileage is still 100, right? Ignoring electricity, yes.
     
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  61. MichaelThwaite avatar Michael Thwaite Posted: 10/19/2011 12:30pm PDT

    I don't think that I can add much to this thread but to a agree with the general point; the Karma looks great but in the attempt to create a best of both worlds they've inadvertantly created the worst of. It's a heavy thirsty gas car with lackluster performance at this price point, & an inefficient EV that might only just scrape through an average commute on batteries alone.

    We can talk about very specific use cases where this car might work but I feel that they are simply too 'niche'.

    If you have the driveway space, buy a Tesla Model S & a Prius - it's a cheaper combo that will put in more EV miles; it's just a shame you can't strap the Prius to the roof so that you can switch to it after 300 miles.
     
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  62. jeffhre avatar Jeff Hre Posted: 10/19/2011 8:40pm PDT

    "...after 300 miles," LOL. I'll be asleep in my rented room by then.

    For you daily high mileage folks, "Despite the range of the still generous 300 mile pack, Tesla is claiming a 45 minute quick-charge time." There ya go, time for a nice meal, a quick rest room stop and you're on your way. No roof straps required
     
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  63. robok2 avatar robok2 Posted: 10/19/2011 1:21pm PDT

    "You are kind of implying that high style and inefficiency must go hand-in-hand. This is not the case and I expect the Tesla Model S will prove this is the case much as Tesla did with the roadster.
    Fisker has simply failed, deal with it already."
    Yes, John, you'd be the last person one would ask about styling... In reality, your obsession with efficiency at all costs, no matter how ugly the package is fine for EV extremists like you. For most people, there's a balance required. Of course in your world, people who don't have the same values as you are stupid.
    Yes, keep those Model S dreams alive... And then expect to be disappointed. $60k-$80k won't work any better for Tesla, either. Efficiency isn't the key, JB, profitability is.
     
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  64. fb_1001015277 avatar John Briggs Posted: 10/20/2011 6:00pm PDT

    Efficient cars have not cornered the market on ugly, that is still a wide open field. For example, the Panamera is very ugly yet has excellent performance.

    Similarly, the Prius might be perceived as ugly, but don't think for a minute that it is impossible to make a nice looking car that is also efficient.

    Not sure how much of an EV extremist I am, but I do feel pretty patiently that we could meet our energy needs (not wants) in this country (USA) a lot better than we currently are.

    Kind of fascinating that anyone is willing to defend Fisker's MPG. I guess love is blind.
     
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  65. fb_1001015277 avatar John Briggs Posted: 10/20/2011 6:11pm PDT

    Off topic.

    Some days I really cannot believe the negative reaction of some people to the Prius.

    We are talking about a car that seats five conformable, rides well, as 0-60 similar to other cars, priced less than the average new car purchased, has all the standard amenities of a modern car, etc. But it is nearly twice as efficient as other vehicle.

    People act like this is some major sacrifice in their life if they had to drive such a vehicle. But it is really no sacrifice at all and can help create a fundamental shift in the USA in foreign trade, security, pollution, etc.

    Let's be clear, if massive numbers of people started buying 50 mpg Priuses, you would quickly find other manufacturers offering all kinds of cars with 50 mpg.
     
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  66. CDspeed avatar CDspeed . Posted: 10/20/2011 7:34pm PDT

    I think the problem is that people are mixing hybrids like the Prius up with their politics rather then just looking at the Prius as a good gas sipping 5 door hatchback. I follow and comment on a few car websites and on most sites people get on them to talk generally about cars, but on the green car sites people seem more concerned with politics, it's like car themed politics. Simply I am a car enthusiast, and I think the Prius is an excellent car, it does what it was designed to do and it does it well.
     
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  67. fb_1001015277 avatar John Briggs Posted: 10/21/2011 4:17am PDT

    Excellent points.

    What really amazes me is this. If I tell people that I bicycle to work, they are generally positive and almost encouraging.

    If I tell people I drive a Prius, a certain percentage of people act like the very existence of the Prius is a treat to their way of life.
     
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  68. CDspeed avatar CDspeed . Posted: 10/21/2011 8:13am PDT

    Exactly, it gets looked at as a politician trying to bring us change in the form of higher taxes for the poor. You may be surprised by this but I catch a bit of flak from drivers when I'm out in my sports car, but I think it's because it's seen as a threat to some driver's manhood, I have actually had a few nice days rewind by aggressive negative attention. People are loosing their manners and love to force their opinions on you or the things you own.
     
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  69. fb_1001015277 avatar John Briggs Posted: 10/21/2011 11:10am PDT

    The Japanese have a saying to the effect that "the nail that sticks out gets hammered down." So if you are doing anything unusual, there is a reaction. Guess that is why no one criticizes me for driving a Corolla. It is completely main stream, nothing to see here. No statement.
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  70. CDspeed avatar CDspeed . Posted: 10/21/2011 1:35pm PDT

    I've come up with a saying, " naysayers speak the loudest". People who are happy with certain things often are content so you hear little or nothing from them, but those who are unhappy or have a negative view love to complain and rant against what they don't like. So we tend to hear more negative opinions, that's why I approach everything with an open mind so I can form my own opinion and am rarely swayed by the opinions of others, because I find that most negative opinions are rarely accurate, especially when it comes to buying cars.
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