Dirtiest Country For Electric Cars? India; Cleanest? Paraguay (Page 2)

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Dirtiest Country For Electric Cars? India; Cleanest? Paraguay Page 2

Antony Ingram

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Manufacturing matters

At the cleanest end of the scale, manufacturing emissions play a huge part in just how clean a vehicle is.

Shrink That Footprint has used a 70 g/km figure, from which the 218 mpg figure is extrapolated. If manufacturing emissions dropped by just 20 g/km, the MPG equivalent would shoot up to 652. Raised by 20 g/km, it would fall to 131 mpg.

The same drop or increase in India, with its already-dirty energy mix, would see rises and falls of only 1 mpg for the same 20 g/km manufacturing difference. In the U.S, it's a 4-6 mpg difference.

Conclusion

There are several things to take from the data.

The first is that the impact of running an electric car depends hugely on where you're running it, and where the electricity is coming from. It's worth remembering at this point that those electric vehicle owners generating their energy from solar will be sitting nicely alongside Paraguay and Iceland in terms of low emissions--so from a green standpoint, it's worth doing.

Next: Manufacturing does play a large part in a car's emissions, but the significance of this varies depending on how clean the car is in the first place. Manufacturing is 100 percent of a car's total emissions in a place like Paraguay, but only a fraction in India.

The lesson there is that a smaller, lighter, less resource-intensive car will already have had a smaller impact on the environment before it reached you. Combine that with electricity--the sub-900 lb, hand-built Renault Twizy, for example--and the car's overall impact is incredibly low.

Additionally, electric cars are clean in other ways, not just CO2. With no tailpipe emissions, there are none of the nasty pollutants you get from any car with an internal combustion engine.

For standing right next to, the electric car will always be greener.

Finally, electric cars will continually get cleaner as the local grid improves. Cleaning up the grid is the quickest way of making electric vehicles cleaner--not to mention making your TV, oven and every other electrical appliance cleaner, too.

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Comments (24)

Xiaolong Li Posted: 2/7/2013 1:59pm PST

Where the car is built and driven/charged are usually completely different. So, using that assumption is a poor way of approaching EV's emission by this study.

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Xiaolong Li Posted: 2/7/2013 2:01pm PST

Last time I looked, neither Iceland nor India really produce any EVs on global scale.

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Jan Durzynski Posted: 2/7/2013 3:44pm PST

You're becoming quite annoying. Someone has to tell you this... What does making a product have to do with anything and especially this article? Iceland hardly makes anything, so does it mean they have no cars at all? They may not make the buses for example yet they run them on fuel cells with hydrogen generated entirely using geothermal energy. The point of the article is that running an EV in India wouldn't contribute to cleaner environment due to their dirty and inefficient energy generation - you might as well run on gasoline - maybe that's why it doesn't make sense to make the EVs there? And just to add to your ignorant post, quite a few early (and current) EVs in the UK are Indian made. There's no need to comment on everything...

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Xiaolong Li Posted: 2/7/2013 7:16pm PST

Well, "At the cleanest end of the scale, manufacturing emissions play a huge part in just how clean a vehicle is."

So, unless you know both the manufacturing process of the car AND where the car is used, you won't know for sure the emission level.

A car that is built in China running in US will still be better than a car that is built in India and running in Iceland.

That is my point. Most of those "so called studies" doesn't really give enough tools for readers to full analyze all the different mix and match situations.

And for your information. If you don't want read my post, then don't read it. You are just as annoying when you don't have clue on what you are talking about. It is NOT your job to police the comment section.

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Jan Durzynski Posted: 2/8/2013 5:06am PST

I love this jewel...

"So, unless you know both the manufacturing process of the car AND where the car is used, you won't know for sure the emission level.

A car that is built in China running in US will still be better than a car that is built in India and running in Iceland."

How did you come up with that? So no one but YOU out of sheer genius and vast knowledge are aware of the differences between Chinese and Indian manufacturing processes involving the same imaginary EV that would be running in the US and Iceland respectively. You just ran data on the fly in your head and decided that imaginary Chinese EV in US = better, Indian EV in Iceland = worse. Wow, just wow...

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Xiaolong Li Posted: 2/8/2013 11:33am PST

I guess you didn't get my point. My point was that unless you combine both the soource of the grid and manufacturing for EACH Particlular model and case, it would be hard to compare them.

My estimate (might NOT be completely correct) is due to the mention of adjusted MPG for India and China where one is about 20mpg and china is equivalent at 30mpg. And if you use solar in the US, then the "50%" improved in difference between China and India would make a major difference in the total emission for those cars operated in Iceland and US (with solar).

It seems to me that your biggest issue is with China. B/c you get very "emotional" with that topic. Maybe we should just leave that topic alone, shall we?

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Xiaolong Li Posted: 2/7/2013 7:30pm PST

@Jan,

Just so you know, just b/c I don't agree with your arguement on the topic of pollution in Beijing, it doesn't mean you are right or I am wrong. It is my right to comment on the topic that I want. Your attitude toward this is extremely annoying or silly. Just b/c you like to read GCR, it doesn't mean other readers can't like it too and post something you don't agree with. Last time I looked, the people that "police" the right to comment is NOT you. Maybe you need to get a life and focuse on your own post instead.

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Jan Durzynski Posted: 2/7/2013 8:48pm PST

Not sure I'm the one who has no life... Like I said you're the first to comment on everything, multiple times, responding to yourself, and you don't really know crap in most cases. Yes, we know you have the Volt and everything revolves around it and Chinese "progress and development" can suck it and choke as far as I care since you've brought it up.

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Jan Durzynski Posted: 2/7/2013 8:54pm PST

Not my job to police but I can tell you that you're clueless and spamingly annoying whenever I want to. Last time you checked India didn't make EVs... You might want to check again and respond to yourself twice and mention your Volt somehow while you're at it.

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John Voelcker Posted: 2/8/2013 5:30am PST

@Jan: First, please keep it polite and don't attack other commenters directly. The word "crap" generated a profanity alert, so please watch your language.

Second, India is home to a company called Reva that has made tens of thousands of electric cars. They wouldn't be street-legal in the states except as low-speed neighborhood electric vehicles, but they were sold in the U.K. as the G-Wiz a few years ago. FYI.

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Ev Now-now Posted: 2/7/2013 5:49pm PST

Funny thing is - Reva (with its G-Wiz) was actually one of the largest EV manufacturers just a few years back !

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Jan Durzynski Posted: 2/7/2013 3:30pm PST

It's actually wells to wheels though I was equally skeptical. The reports by the concerned scientists have the EVs pegged to ~30 MPG in Nebraska and the Dakotas and ~ 50 MPG in the Northwest, so 40 for the entire country is quite believable.

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Lindsay Wilson Posted: 2/8/2013 1:16am PST

Indeed it is well to wheels.

FYI the difference to the UCS report is that this one accounts for different manufacturing emissions between EV and petrol.

If you assume they are the same (like UCS) the US figure is 50 MPG, more in line with the concerned scientists average.

Nice write up! Though i'd definitely change this given the chance '465 g/mi, or 744 g/km' ;-)

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Ev Now-now Posted: 2/7/2013 5:45pm PST

"In India, with its entirely coal-generated electricity"

Hmmm ... I don't think so. They have a lot of hydro-electricity as well.

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Jan Durzynski Posted: 2/8/2013 5:22am PST

True and including nuclear, 37% of their electricity comes from "clean" sources which ranks them quite highly (definitely higher than China even with its lovely Three Gorges Dam.) However, their coal efficiency sucks.

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Ev Now-now Posted: 2/8/2013 9:49am PST

Actually, it is the coal that sucks. It has high ash content (IIRC).

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Xiaolong Li Posted: 2/8/2013 12:20pm PST

I guess your "hot button" is the China vs. India issue or China in general. But let us leave that aside and try to be polite about the topic since you like to get "emotioinal" over anything to do with China.

It is true that China's grid is dirty and lots of it comes from coal. But China consumps about 4x more electricity than India (still less than US on per capita basis). But its "clean energy" is actually far greater than India's but since it consumes so much, the % is worse.

Wind: China 62GW vs India 18.4GW
Solar: 3.3GW vs. 1.1GW
Hydro: 210GW vs. 37.3 GW
Nuke: 11.3GW vs. 4.7GW

Can China and India both improves their e-source? Absolutely. China is top 3 in growth of Wind/Solar/Hydro energy and India is planning for the same.

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Brian Henderson Posted: 2/8/2013 1:29pm PST

Problem with relative comparisons is they ignore the absolute values. Just as comparing the relative cleanness of EVs by country ignores the less clean vehicles on the roads of these countries… We don't need relative arguments; we need absolute solutions!

Fact: China on track in 2013 to use as much Coal as the rest of World combined! http://go.usa.gov/49HY http://twitter.com/EIAgov/status/296243740236984320/photo/1 - via: @EIAgov

The fact has lttle to do with EVs… just some insight on emissions from one country. [!!!!!]

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Xiaolong Li Posted: 2/8/2013 5:23pm PST

I agree. China has many areas to improve beside just its cars. Its power grid and industrial pollution contributes to majority of the pollution. Its farm equipment and transportation equipment are far dirtier than the cars. Not to mention all the pollution generated from residential heating based on coal and charcoal during winter.

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Brian Henderson Posted: 2/8/2013 12:53pm PST

Here we go again talking about "well-to-wheels" costs of powering an electric drive vehicle using 5-6 year old data! Clearly the objective of this study is to make the 0.1% of the cleanest vehicles on our planet cleaner so we won't be concerned with the other 99.9%.

Why just compare EVs & not compare all vehicles, considering drilling wells is not necessary to power EVs? Such comparisons only invoke negative criticism on my mud being dirty'er than your mud! If petroleum is added to the the mix, all mud is cleaner.

note: Regions of planet with the most EVs have the greenest electricity! The reality of electrical power is it is & will continue to get cleaner & greener, unlike any fuel elements derived from drilling wells, or digging holes.

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