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Payback On Plug-Ins: Finance Commentator Misses The Point

 
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2012 Toyota Prius Plug-In Hybrid - production model

2012 Toyota Prius Plug-In Hybrid - production model

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We love data, and articles that analyze data.

We love them a little less when their opening lines sneer at sites like this one by calling them the "sunshine, lollipops and rainbows electric car press."

Still, there are far more interesting problems with a recent analysis on Seeking Alpha entitled "Electric Cars--Still Crazy After Five More Years."


Author John Peterson's premise is that, despite a Pike Research report that projected electric-car battery costs would fall to $520 per kilowatt-hour by 2017, electric cars still won't offer a payback in fuel-cost savings even five years hence.

Or as Peterson puts it, "...electric drive will remain hopelessly uneconomic because small batteries are beautiful when it comes to transportation economics but large batteries are aggressively ugly."

He then proceeds to quote Toyota's Bill Reinert, known throughout the industry for his frequently expressed belief that plug-ins with any battery size above about 5 kilowatt-hours make no sense.

Where we think Peterson misses the forest for the trees is his assumption that the only reason to buy a plug-in car is to save money.

It's not about payback

At prices of $28,000 and up (before incentives), plug-in cars are emphatically not the cheapest ride for most buyers today when all costs are included. (There are exceptions, we should note, but not all that many.)

Instead, the early buyers of plug-in cars fall into some relatively specific groups: early adopters, electric-drive fans, uber-greens, energy-security hawks, and finally the "cheap bastards," who carefully project lifetime costs for their cars and plan to keep them long enough where they will see a payback on a plug-in car.

Only one of those groups has cost savings as the purchase motivator. The others buy for completely different reasons--and, together, those groups will likely buy the first three to five years' worth of electric cars (along with large corporate and government fleets).

In due course, as battery costs come down 6 to 8 percent a year and plug-in sales slowly rise, early adopters will be overtaken by mass market buyers.

Some think that happens in 2016 (especially Nissan CEO Carlos Ghosn), while others say 2020 is more likely. Gasoline prices will play a role in the slope that curve too, as will higher costs for gasoline cars to meet increasingly stringent fuel economy rules.

Age-old argument

In fact, this small-battery vs. large-battery argument has raged for years in the electric-car world.

Polar Charging Post and Nissan Leaf

Polar Charging Post and Nissan Leaf

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On the one hand are the minimalists, who say that you can get most of the savings of a battery electric car if you add a smallish plug-in pack (4 or 5 kilowatt-hours) to an existing hybrid car.

This is the approach taken by the 2012 Toyota Prius Plug-In--the car Reinert would tout as the only sensible solution--along with plug-in versions of the upcoming 2013 Ford C-Max and Ford Fusion. Those cars have electric ranges of 6 to 15 miles, under limited circumstances.

On the other hand are the zero-emission crowd, who point out that most people's driving falls within the 70-to-100-mile range of a modern battery electric car--which emits nothing and consumes no gasoline.

Investment advice

Peterson is primarily giving investment advice--he's bearish on lithium-ion cell makers, including the struggling A123 Systems [NSDQ:AONE], along with Tesla Motors [NSDQ:TSLA]--rather than advising car buyers.






 
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Comments (18)
  1. While Mr Peterson is well known as a hater of EVs, he is hardly the only author to focus primarily on the economic arguments for green vehicles.

    GCR routinely focuses on cost analyses as the low-hanging-fruit for analysis of competing vehicles. Factors such as emission, energy security, etc, are frequently mentioned only in the second to last paragraph, if, in fact, at all.

    So while the "forest" can meet the "trees", let's introduce the "pot" to the "kettle."
     
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  2. I've read John Peterson before; he's not very experienced with electric cars. I'm not sure why he writes so much about them.

    He often compares EVs to gasoline cars as though it's a binary thing. It's like comparing SUV's and 2-seater sports cars. SUV's are useless on the track 2-seater sports cars can't get the family on holiday therefore in John's binary world that would mean that they were all hopeless.
     
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  3. So if I understand Voelcker's argument, initial sales will be governed by the early adopter groups that he enumerated. Then hopefully that builds enough sales to get volumes up on the batteries. This will drive down battery costs, and hopefully make the EV economics better.

    This seems reasonable. I don't think that the main stream buyers will be up for spending $40,000 for an EV with the price of gasoline at $4/gallon. There would have to be a big chance in the price of batteries, or gasoline, or an oil supply disruption to motivate more people into buying EVs.

    But Mr. Peterson's question is a good one, should we invest in A123 or Tesla? I know I will not be doing that.
     
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  4. John, I agree with your comments here and John V.'s as well. I finally got a Volt about a month ago and economics means comparing what to what again? I was driving an A4, so the base price was similar. With the $7.5 credit, much cheaper, of course. With roughly $180/month in fuel savings, but $24 for extra electrcity, it'll save me roughly $155/month there. My lease is $371 for 15k miles but was $421 if I put nothing down.

    It's too early to get crazy, but leases may make sense for many people. My 38-mile R/T commute that took about 1.5 gallons of premium is now 100% electricity. At off-peak rates, that's now about $0.40. If my nothing-down $421/month (loaded, Nav. leather)saves me $155, I'm paying roughly $266.

    I think that's reasonable.
     
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  5. That is great story. I think for a lot of people who are used to spending $40K on a car, these new options are worth considering.

    I live in a wealthy suburb and for a lot of my neighbors who bought Priuses, this was a much less expensive car than the BMW, Audi's, Lexus, and Acura vehicles it replaced.

    There are different market segments to consider.

    Also, worth keeping in mind that the average new vehicle price is $30,000, not the $15,000 that EV opponents want to use as a comparison.
     
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  6. re: " Also, worth keeping in mind that the average new vehicle price is $30,000, not the $15,000 that EV opponents want to use as a comparison. "

    Exactly, the past day or so I've been having that argument with a moron on another site.
    He cant get it thru his head that things come done in price after a x number of people buy them and improvements are made. It always happens and it'll happen again with EV's.
     
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  7. The mistake in all of the analyses I've seen is the assumption that buyers who by electric cars to save money are, on average, average. That's simply not true. Strategic purchasers take into account their own driving habits when making their purchase decision. Taking this as fact, it must then be true that the group of Volt purchasers, on average, have a driving style that benefits more from the Volt than would the average driving style of all drivers.

    For instance, I own a Volt and plan to use my Volt exclusively for battery miles. If, at the end of my 36 month lease, almost all of my 36,000 miles are battery-based, my costs are approximately the same as they would have been had I leased an Elantra (and that assumes no gas $ increase)
     
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  8. Price reality : Tesla is retailing their battery packs at roughly $520 per kilowatthour right now, and still a buyer with a 300 mile battery pack faces not only an initial cost of roughly $40K for the batteries alone, but (if he had to replace the batteries today) another $40K for replacement. That battery pack will not last probably more than 9 years or so. As for "all those other reasons for buying electric" - apparently not many out there have such non-economic motivations, to judge by the pitifully tiny sales numbers for both the Leaf and the Volt. Peterson has a valid point : mass produced EVs are not going to happen until battery prices come WAY down. Or gasoline starts selling for $20 per gallon.
     
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  9. Not necessarily. First of all, compared to the early adoption of hybrids in the US, the Leaf, Volt and i-MiEV sales are way ahead of the curve. The Leaf and Volt sales, etc., are not "pitifully tiny".

    EVs are cheaper in the long run, and anyone that does the math will see that. The problem is initial cost. Particularly in this tough economy, there are people, and I know some, that want to buy a plug-in vehicle, but the up-front sticker price is too much. Not by much, but enough. That's a lot of money to finance a Volt compared to a Cruze, for example.

    The tax credit is received upon filing taxes and waiting for the credit. The full amount, minus a down-payment, needs to be financed up front. A point-of-sale rebate would help.
     
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  10. This is where a lease comes in handy. Low monthly lease and no fuel costs plus updated technology in 3 years. Win-win for me. No worries about the tax credit. It's not surprise that when I turn in my 2011 Volt in 2014, the Volt 2.0 will be available.
     
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  11. Also, Tesla's battery packs are warranteed for 8yrs, which is intended to represent a 20% drop in useful charge capacity.

    Tesla offered an optional battery replacement warrantee for the Roadster ($12k), guaranteeing the entire pack replacement at no additional charge, unless the replacement was needed prior to the end of the warrantee (7yrs. for Roadster, additional $2k charged for every year less than 7). If you needed the replacement after the regular warrantee expires, then Tesla refunds $1k per year beyond 7yrs at the time you replace the pack.

    If Tesla does that again with the Model S and X, then you have the option to hedge your bets by buying the replacement warrantee.
     
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  12. Yeah, Kent, that $371/lease and $150/month in fuel savings is absolutely killing me... Oh, that's at $4/gallon and we all know gas will never increase again, right? Oh, that's right, I paid $4.20 for premium just yesterday, so I'm not even paying $221/month.

    And that's for a Volt, with an ICE still included. Eliminate that and even cheaper. Still too expensive for you? Do you need help with the math?
     
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  13. There is certainly something to be said for Toyota's plug in Prius approach, which they could easily and cheaply adopt for an existing vehicle. Of course, we don't know the lifespan of their small battery pack, so we are unable to estimate its actual cost effectiveness. Economically, I would bet that Toyota's approach
    is the best way to go. And, with foresight, they might have designed it so that a larger pack could be swapped in later. I would certainly buy their Prius plug-in long before ever considering the Volt or Leaf.
     
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  14. Seriously, Kent, what part of a warranty don't you get? When a battery is under warranty for eight years, then the consumer doen't pay a penny for battery replacement even if it shoudl become necessary. Yet, in your neverending need to try to make the Volt more expensive than it really is, you needlessly try to add the battery cost in again.

    Again, I'll ask you and again, you'll ignore the point, but here we go again. What part of a $371 monthly lease that saves me $180 in gas but costs me $20-$30 in extra electrcity don't you get? Is my actual cost of $250/month for the Volt after fuel savings still too expensive, as you claim?

    We're all aware you hate the Volt after 100 comments. Is $250/month for it still too expensive?
     
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  15. The economics work differently for different people.

    For example some one with cash in the bank earning virtually nothing will probably earn around a 10-15% return if they were to put the additional 10K into a Volt over say a Camry. This based on monthly fuel savings and price differential .

    Look at it that way and it is a good investment in to todays climate.

    That off course assumes you have 10K sat in the bank doing nothing and you are prepared to spend 33K on a car in the first place. Most don't and aren't .
     
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  16. As one of the early adopters who actually drive an EV, I can say that the drive is amazing. I shift between gas powered and electric powered cars and have started to deeply dislike the ICE. People will buy electric cars for many reasons beyond operating costs. Give an EV a few test drives and decide for yourself!
     
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  17. I chuckled a bit when John P said that the first thing in his analysis that caught his eye was that a Tesla Model S doesn't save any more gasoline than a Leaf. What an astute observation.
    By extension riding a camel wouldn't save you any more gasoline either.
     
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  18. another "expert opinion" - LOL.

    as a rule, experts dont know anything of value. they just spout off opinions.

    if the bigwigs, or financial clout, or however else you want to name it - want to sell evs to the masses, they will. you can take that to the bank.

    it is much better for an industry to make a gradual transformation. in this case from ices to evs.

    but i still think that 10 years is enough time to make this change.
     
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