Oil Exec Says Electric-Car Batteries 'Not Ready for Primetime'

 
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It's always good to hear the arguments against electric cars. Some are valid, some are idiotic, and some simply betray a lack of knowledge about how the auto industry really works.

Into that last category may go some comments by one William M. Colton, ExxonMobil’s vice president for corporate strategic planning.

At least 10 years away

In an interview with The New York Times, he commented that electric-car batteries were "not ready for prime time," that a breakthrough to make electric cars practical wouldn't come for at least 10 years, and that gasoline's much greater energy density meant that buyers would always choose cars with longer ranges.

'Oil Barrels, 2008' (detail) by Chris Jordan

'Oil Barrels, 2008' (detail) by Chris Jordan

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In more detail, Colton estimates the cost per kilowatt-hour of electric-car battery packs at $800 to $1,000. That must fall by half or more, he says, before electric cars are practical.

Well, yes, that may be true for many buyers. But basic research will show that the cost-performance of consumer lithium-ion cells--the ones in your mobile phone or laptop--has fallen 6 to 8 percent a year since the first one was introduced in 1989. Most analysts expect the same for large-format automotive cells.

2011 Nissan Leaf, Nashville, October 2010

2011 Nissan Leaf, Nashville, October 2010

Enlarge Photo

2020? We're there

That means that by 2020, those costs will indeed have fallen by half.

So, in fact, in just 10 years from last December's launch of such cars as the 2011 Nissan Leaf and 2011 Chevy Volt, electric vehicles could be cost-competitive on purchase price with gasoline cars? (Not to mention the much, much lower cost-per-mile for electrics.)

Gee, that sounds pretty good to us.

Colton also neglects to mention that it will take the industry as much as 10 years to get to the point where even 1 or 2 percent of global vehicle production (now roughly 70 million vehicles a year, perhaps 100 million by then) will be electric cars. That's about the same path that hybrid-electric vehicles followed, by the way.

Really big numbers

Right now, there's debate over whether the U.S. can accomplish President Obama's goal of a total of 1 million plug-in vehicles on its roads by 2015. And that total (over five years) would be less than 10 percent of annual U.S. vehicle production.

2011 Chevrolet Volt outside Detroit-Hamtramck assembly plant

2011 Chevrolet Volt outside Detroit-Hamtramck assembly plant

Enlarge Photo

In other words, folks, it's going to take time to build the new infrastructure of lithium-ion cell plants, electric-motor assembly lines, and so forth before we see any significant volumes of electric cars.

Colton seems blithely unaware of that reality.

More efficient gasoline engines, more hybrids

Colton also believes that gasoline engines will become much more efficient, and sales of hybrid-electric vehicles will grow as the cost of their electric machinery and battery packs comes down and more makers launch hybrid models.

And he suggests that replacing coal with natural gas in electric power-generating plants may be the most cost-effective way of all to reduce carbon emissions.

We think he's right on those three points. In fact, we've published numerous articles saying essentially the same thing (less so on the power-plant issue, since this is a site about cars).

'Why We Hate the Oil Companies,' by John Hofmeister

'Why We Hate the Oil Companies,' by John Hofmeister

Enlarge Photo

Is it really fear of the plug?

But we note that everything he approves of has a fossil-fuel component, whether it's gasoline or natural gas.

And we wonder whether he's emblematic of an oil industry that has finally acknowledged that efforts to control carbon emissions may be inevitable.

But more efficient gasoline cars and hybrids still require gasoline. Plug-in cars don't.

Sure, the electricity that powers them may be generated by burning coal, but it may also come from those efficient natural-gas plants, and increasingly from renewable sources like wind and various forms of solar power.

So we have to wonder if it's really the prospect of battery electric vehicles that use no gasoline at all, and potentially nothing at all out of an oil well, that really scares at least one oil-company executive.

What do you think? Leave us your thoughts in the Comments section below.

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Comments (33)
  1. evs will take over as fast as we can build em.
     
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  2. A wise man once said "First they ignore you, then they laugh at you, then they fight you, then you win"
    Sounds like Mr. Colton and his comrades are at the laughing stage. I suppose we should be ready for the fight, real soon....
     
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  3. Mr. Colton’s may have not noticed that there are many kinds of vehicles, which meet many requirements. I, for one, requirement two different vehicles. One is for around town, short trip usage. This vehicle is heavily used and cost of operation is a major consideration. In our location, electricity is relatively inexpensive and insulated from the energy market since, about 40%, is generated from nuclear. Our power company has approved location permits and requested construction permits that will increase this percentage and expand capacity. Our environment definitely changes the selection equation. Within the last 30 days an announcement of a type of anode for the lithium-ion cell will increase the capacity by 30% or reduce cost. This starts to address the issue of initial price, which I think is the greatest current barrier to mass use of electric cars.
     
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  4. You forgot to mention that clean nuclear generated electricity will be replacing coal.
     
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  5. When will people stop using the wrong numbers for batteries. $800 to $1000/KWH is just incorrect. You can buy large format Li-Ion batteries right now at retail for $400/KWH.
    If you are going to keep using these numbers at least state that they are "disputed". Don't know how else to say it.
    So we don't need to wait until 2020. The batteries are half-price now.
     
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  6. Here some data on battery prices.
    http://www.technologyreview.com/files/49959/Jan11%20Feature%20Electric%20Cars%20p61.pdf
    suggesting price is between $600 and $1105/KWH today.
    Given that the batteries can be purchased for less than $400/KWH, I still think the numbers are too high.
     
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  7. If the $1000/KWH mentioned in the story is correct, the 24KWH pack in the LEAF cost $24,000. Given that they are selling the car for $32,000. That leaves only $8,000 for the rest of the car. This would seem most unlikely.
     
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  8. If you read the actual article it says that:
    last time he [Mr. Colton] looked, the battery in the Leaf cost $17,000.
    By his calculation, batteries cost $800 to $1,000 per kilowatt-hour
    Also:
    'after about 5 years at which time the battery should have approximately 80% capacity.'
    Source: Clean Technica (http://s.tt/130ch)
    Too many ums, 'we thinks' and general dodging in this interview for my liking.
     
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  9. It's interesting that Mr. Colton is president for corporate strategic planning. Maybe he can explain how his industry is going to supply all the world's vehicles with the fuels they need in the next 10 years. Rumours of immanent peak oil grow stronger every the day, the latest from Wikileaks suggesting that Saudi oil production may peak by 2012. Mind you: they are supposed to be the "central bank" of oil, the ones the world turns to when shortages occur. All of this happens while the really really big countries like China and India have only just begun their (almost 100% fossil fuel based) mass-motorization. So what (besides disparaging plug-ins) is the oil industry doing to make sure a devastating oil crunch doesn't sent the world into chaos mr Colton? Or is the scope of your strategic vision limited to next quarters profits and damn the consequences?
     
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  10. I agree with Paul Hill's use case. There will be lots of two-car families who could easily integrate an EV into their household's current driving pattern. I work 2.5 miles from home and would probably run or bike, except that I take my daughter to daycare nearby. One of our cars could easily be an EV. Oh, and I live in the Pacific Northwest - a region where some communities are 100% hydro driven and an area of the country with huge wind power projects - so we can offer some sizable carbon offset numbers down the road.
     
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  11. @John: Once again, please note the difference between Li-ion *cells* (for which you quote prices of $400/kWh) and the entire *battery packs*, which includes interconnects, monitors, structural members, insulation, often cooling pipes and/or fins, and various other components. The estimates I quoted are clearly marked as for the entire pack, not for the individual cells.
     
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  12. I do agree with John Briggs that batteries are probably half price now compared to Big Oil FUD, not just because of retail cell prices but because of the scale Nissan is betting on batteries. Since there are fixed and variable cost to be considered even Nissan can only determine it's final battery cost when the last current chemistry pack leaves the assembly line, but their battery bet wouldn't make much sense if they didn't expect to end up somewhere (way) below $400/KWH. Keep in mind though that your battery cost aren't just determined by the up front price. Ultimately it's the number of charge/discharge cycles it can take without loosing too much capacity that determines your battery cost per mile.
     
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  13. Chris O - Do you hsve a link? "Wikileaks suggesting that Saudi oil production may peak by 2012"
     
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  14. @John Voelcker,
    Once again, please note that $400/KWH is retail not wholesale. I think GM could do better than retail prices.
    Continuing to use this $1000/KWH amounts to carrying water for EV opponents.
    Here is yet another article calling battery prices at $400/KWH (early 2012 delivery). The company is Better Place which should know a thing or two about battery prices.
    http://www.greentechmedia.com/articles/read/ev-batteries-dropping-rapidly-in-price/
    The $1000/KWH number has got to go, or at the very least have a parenthetic "disputed" hanging out near by.
    Later
    John C. Briggs
     
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  15. Here is one guy's attempt to calculate the battery cost including BMS and charger. He comes out with $541 in 2010 using RETAIL prices.
    http://www.evsroll.com/Electric_Car_Battery_Cost.html
    Later
    John C. Briggs
     
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  16. Another indication that there are automotive grade batteries out there at only a fraction of what Big Oil FUD suggests is AMP motor's offer to turn your Equinox into an EV for $25K, including a 37KWH batterypack. I can't imagine them doing that at a profit if battery cost made up more than half of that price, suggesting battery cost at the pack level way below $400/KWH for LiFePo chemistry batteries right now.
    @JP: ever heard of Google?
     
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  17. Battery prices will fall by 50% just due to volume production...economies of scale...no tech breakthrough required. That said, many breakthroughs are working in the labs. By 2020 we will have $250/KWh batteries. Right now taxpayer dollars subsidize internal combustion engine (ICE) vehicles at an average of $12,000.00 per car over the life of the vehicle ($2 per gallon of gas of taxpayer dollars spent on oil transport military protection and oil company tax breaks)...if actually leveled the playing field and allowed capitalism to work, EVs would replace all ICE vehicles in this decade.
    James Billmaier
     
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  18. Oil companies starting to be afraid of loosing business, otherwise they will not come up with this kind of comments. BTW, the argument of drive range mde me laugh. Better Place will start in Israel and Denmark setting up infrastructure with battery switch stations. This means a nearly unlimited distance to drive full electric, as long as you switch your batteries. Read our article about this.So far only renault has adopted the battery switsch system in their EV;s but I expect more will follow.
     
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  19. ExxonMobile is just pissed because they don't have a stranglehold on the patents for lithium based battery technology. I have almost 50K gas-free miles on my 2000 Ford Ranger EV with Panasonics's EV-95 NiMH batteries. These batteries (which Chevron/Texaco bought the patents to and sued Panasonic to stop making them.) enabled a Ranger like mine to go 70 miles and charge to 90% in 3 hours. These same batteries in a small lightweight and areodynamic car could go 100-130 miles in a charge. This is 1998 technology! Nissan Leaf on order to replace our VW TDI Beetle that burns 100% biodiesel.
     
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  20. The oil exec is right. Its at least 10 years away. but in the wrong direction. The battery tech namely NIMH tech was done over 10 years AGO and then sold to texaco/chevron via GM after they crushed (literall) all the EV1's
    while the EV1 was not a spectacular car (2 seater) its BATTERY was game changing. 25 year lifespan 100 mile range $4500.
    Yeah I say thats good enough for primetime seeing as how that would make it entirely possible to make a FULL RETAIL $13,500 100mile range 4 door mid size sedan no rebates no subsidies.
    sadly the leaf is not viable. its pay back time exceeds its lifespan even for someone like me who drives 40,000 miles a year.
    The battery pack is too expensive and too short lived. they would have to get the leaf battery pack down to $1200 to be viable against NIMH.
    The E95 nimh is the trick. thats what we need to force them to produce.
    then SERIOUS R&D dollars will start to flow into electric cars and we can be done with this crap once and for all.
    I contend that it we hard core pushed to convert to EV that inside 10 years we will have $1000 battery packs that go 300 miles to a charge and last essentially forever (longer than the life of the car)
    I saw thats possible inside of 10 years if we "hard core" switch to EV's
     
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  21. This was a worthless article- William makes the point that there needs to be a major breakthrough and it will take 10 years. You disagree that a "breakthrough" is needed, but essentially agree due to requiring an infrastructure & manufacturing requirements that will take 10 years.
    In either case you're both making the same point, that realistically electric cars wont be prime time until 2020.
    You then say he's right on three other points, perhaps he's not that blithely unaware of reality as you try to accuse him of.
    A poorly framed argument if you can call it one, but I suppose your editors paid you for this article anyway.
     
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  22. Anyone remember the EV-1? if not then look up and watch the documentary, "Who Killed the Electric Car?" that documents how GM produced some 2000 EV-1's that they leased to people who loved them to the point of trying to (unsuccessfully)sue GM to buy them when GM demanded them all back. GM had shut down the production plant the day it bought the Hummer line (prob because they knew the neo-cons were planning wars of adventure)then recallled all the EV-1's and had them crushed/shredded leaving only one permanantly disabled in some car museum!!
     
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  23. Great, now find me an electric car that doesn't cost more than my house is worth and we're golden.
     
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  24. Both the auto exec and this article's writer have an agenda. I don't find fault in either person seeing things (and advocating things) from their own perspective. That happens all the time.
    As it relates to this article, the primary purpose seems to be to communicate how uninformed Colton is to numerous realities. I really doubt that he is this. In fact, I see a bit of truth in what the article writer says - and what the auto exec says. I guess I'm not convinced by either person - especially considering that both are advocates for a particular cause. One for green - and one for profit. Personally, I see the auto exec as in a more "informed" position on this topic. And, the auto exec knows that profits WILL come from green cars. Thus, there is little incentive for him to be anti-green. All manufacturers see that people want to move to green technology. Too bad that people are foolish enough to believe that buying a Toyota Prius is an amazingly wise choice. There is a lot more waste being created every time a new car is created. And, what about all of the toxic chemicals from the batteries? What about how many batteries these cars will require in a lifetime. Sadly, I see hardly any articles on these realities. Green cars haven't arrived the way some people are advocating.
     
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  25. Adding to my prior statement, here is an example of how promoting "green" isn't always as "green" as we think it is. Consumer and public beware. We all want to move "green." But, sometimes the products we THINK are "green" - are NOT.
    See "LED Products Billed as Eco-Friendly Contain Toxic Metals, Study Finds" on Science Daily.
    ScienceDaily (Feb. 11, 2011) — Those light-emitting diodes marketed as safe, environmentally preferable alternatives to traditional lightbulbs actually contain lead, arsenic and a dozen other potentially hazardous substances, according to newly published research.
     
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  26. @Cris ever heard of Google?
    Funny, yes I found it.
     
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  27. @Corey,
    Research on the dirtiness of cars shows that 90% of the pollution comes from the gasoline they consume and not the construction of the vehicle itself. So a 50MPG city Prius is one heck of a lot less polluting that anything else that you can buy. Well with the possible exceptions of EVs.
     
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  28. @John (no last name), post #23
    Sure get yourself a Nissan LEAF for about $25,000 after tax rebate. That should be less than the cost of your house if you live in the USA.
     
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  29. I think the point on range was mostly ignored in this article. The truth is that for most buyers, range is a major limiting factor. Sure maybe someday we can switch batteries (not very likely, these are large batteries, often times unique to the vehicle), but the reality is that we don't want cars that can only go 100 miles. Many times a year I drive cross country and an electric car simply wouldn't work.
     
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  30. Oil Execs, lie, cheat, fabricate do whatever they want through their legions of lawyers to produce lying cheating fabricated proof about anything that may cut into the oil profits. Case in point, Bio Diesel, man goes out to tell the world how great it is, schools convert to bio diesel, truck lines convert to bio diesel and just when he is thinking he's making head way front page ads come out in 7 major news papers saying bio diesel is bad, it is poisonous and overnight bio diesel failed. The lawyers of these oil execs placed those adds. They did not speak the truth. They claimed that sense the bio fuel came from plants the chemicals used on plants made the bio fuel poisonous. Of course these lawyers were talking out of their collective you know what, but the damage had been done. So when an oil exceed opens his mouth I do not listen. As for poisons in the battery, lithium Ion Ferrite completely safe for the environment.
     
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  31. Most family's have two cars. One can be gas powered and used for long trips, for the shopping and around town stuff and even driving to work EV is better. Regardless of range or top speed or whatever else you can drum up EV's will replace ICE soon. And they are 0 emission so your saving the environment too. What could be better?
     
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  32. @By Mike - Exactly, we have two vehicles. I was curious about the miles we drive daily so I started a log. I was surprised to discover that we almost never drive over 50 miles a day on either vehicle. We will only need one gas powered vehicle for long trips.
     
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  33. EV batteries are already half the price per kW hour quoted in the article and will likely fall by another 50% by the end of the decade. In other words EVs will be cheaper than conventional cars by 2020. Assuming there are no economic, energy security, or environmental shifts that send the price of oil into the stratosphere before then (I would not bet against it happening), then you are going to look pretty foolish buying a conventional car from now on by the time you want to sell it.
     
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